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Would you support a Romani Gypsy nation being created in India?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Rambuchan, Jul 30, 2007.

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  1. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    The Romani (Gypsy) people originated in north west India, specifically in Rajasthan and the Punjab. Linguistic and genetic evidence has proven this. Around 1000AD they began to migrate westwards, either as slaves within Mahmud of Ghazni's Empire, or as free people fleeing persecution. Since then, they have been a wandering people, without a homeland, and have faced discrimination, persecution and ethnic cleansing pretty much wherever they have gone.

    The most dramatic treatment of these people was during Hitler's Holocaust. Termed "Porajmos" by the Romani themselves, this was an attempt to eradicate Romani people from Europe by way of genocide. This saw the deaths of anything between 200,000 and 2,000,000 Romani people (estimates are tricky owing to their exclusion from census taking and the lack of documentation in the Romani community). Indeed the Nazi treatment of the Gypsies was in many ways more harsh than that exacted upon the Jews. Many recorded events demonstrate how Nazi soldiers considered the Gypsies unworthy of even the concentration camps and murdered them on the railway platforms as they arrived. There are even records of how the Gypsies were pleading to be let into the concentration camps, only to be led straight to the gas chambers.

    But even before the Nazi Holocaust, the Romani were the subject of persecution and ethnic cleansing. In Europe, they were considered to be "spies of the Turks" and inspired ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. Prior to that they, along with the Jews, were considered to be "bringers of the plague" and faced all manner of persecution. Elsewhere in the world they were the subject of anti-immgration laws which banned their passing into countries such as America and Argentina.

    To this day, the Romani people, who have suffered such genocidal attempts and consistent persecution, are still the subject of much persecution and discrimination. To this day, the Romani people do not have a homeland.

    ---

    So, why don't we just create one where they used to live? National borders can be carved out for them across Rajasthan and the Punjab (map provided below for reference). Please feel free to use the blank map in the spoiler underneath to draw in precise borders that take your fancy.



    Spoiler :

    Aside from the minor issue of where the borders should be, there are other matters to consider. Such as resistance and public opinion. Nevermind either of those. The Romani can be provided with the most up-to-date military technology to deal with any insurgent Rajasthanis and Punjabis (and others by way of proxy) who might take exception. This can include a huge secret nuclear arsenal. It should be put to the UN to give a gloss of legitimacy. Any Indian opposition to the proposal need not be feared for they can just be ignored/vetoed. As for the wider global public, the Gypsy owned media can fudge over any attempts at crying foul play and much can be made of their genocide to tweak heartstrings where necessary. Please add any further strategies and devices that can and should be employed to ---->

    Give The Romani a place they can call home!

    ---

    Do you agree with this proposal?

    Please elaborate on your reasons why or why not and discuss the plan and its implications.
     
  2. Mr. Dictator

    Mr. Dictator A Chain-Smoking Fox

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    you could have really caught people's hypocrasy if you would have left the last part out :[

    but i agree.
     
  3. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    I'd be all for it. Heck, I'd even pay them to move back to India. Just name the price.

    Their integration has failed and as of now, they're mostly a burder to the countries they live in, especially the Central and Eastern European ones. If they decided they want to leave for India, I guess a lot of people would rejoice.
     
  4. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    If they would actually be willing to move there massively(*), and will not do any harm to the population that already lives inside those borders, and India doesn't have anything against it(*), then of course I would support it!! I'd even help them to move there!!

    (*) = I doubt it.




    Edit: Crosspost... :lol:
     
  5. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Your signature couldn't be more accurate :lol:
     
  6. Mr. Dictator

    Mr. Dictator A Chain-Smoking Fox

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    nevermind, no hypocrasy yet.

    it's like israel all over again.
     
  7. bhsup

    bhsup Chieftain

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    Why involve the UN? If the Indian government wants to carve out a space for them, that is between those parties. Stuff what the UN would say on the matter.

    Why do I take the Indian government's views into account when your OP said not to worry about it? There are a couple of little flaws in your not so subtle Israel comparison. There had never been an independent state of Palestine, and Jews still lived in that region.
     
  8. Masquerouge

    Masquerouge Chieftain

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    You gotta love the "but in my country, they really steal chickens!" answers...
     
  9. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    BTW, as for the Czech rep. and its Roma minority:

    Population:
    Czech Rep.: 10,300,000
    Gypsies: 150-300 thousands

    Unemployment (estimate, no clear figures are available): 70% or more
    ----> 75% of the unemployed Roma are unemployed for longer than 1 year
    ----> 30% of them longer than 4 years.
    ----> only 7 to 15% have participated in retraining programmes

    Education (2003 figures):
    ----> 60% attended special schools or failed to finish primary school
    ----> 30% have only primary education
    ----> 9% have secondary education
    ----> only 1.3% have higher education


    And it's worsening because of their rising numbers. Although the government is trying to motivate them to get education and work, it keeps failing. Until they stop pretending they are discriminated and unable to get a job, in other words, until they get that victim mentality out of their heads, nothing will change.

    So, if we had an option to move them to India, no cost would be too high. They cost this country billions every year.
     
  10. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    In my country, they steal pretty much everything :p

    Few days ago, two were killed when they were stealing scrap metal and the factory hall roof collapsed.
     
  11. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Is there a significant gypsy population in the proposed location? Is there a significant movement among the gypsy community yerning to return to their homeland? Do they even identify themselves at all with that region?

    Despite the obvious similarities with Israel (and of course this thread is about Israel), the anology fails at those points. Jews in Europe had talked about moving back to the Holy Land for centuries, and a coordinated movement emerged in the 19th Century. By their own initiative (and not that of the UN, Great Britain or the USA), Jews were moving to Palestine (then an ottoman dominion) and legally purchasing properties much before WW2 and the Holocaust. Not to mention that there has always been some jewish presence over there.
    Another obvious flaw with the OP analogy is that the Jews always regarded Israel as their homeland and many if not most dreamed of a jewish nation there. As far as I know (and I could be wrong here), the gypsies have no defined sense of homeland, much less one in India (do most gypsies even know that they are of indian origin?)
    Finally (and this is not particularly relevant to the main discussion), the israelis were not granted "a state of the art arsenal". In fact in the beginning they had very little foreign support, and won the wars with limited resources but with the tremendous willpower of those who fight for their own existence, earning according to every historical norm the right to live in that land.
     
  12. Leonel

    Leonel Breakfast Connoisseur

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    I think the question should be Do they want their own nation?
     
  13. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    No. In their own nation, they'd have to take care of themselves.
     
  14. Goonie

    Goonie Lonely End of the Rink

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    Actually it made me vomit.
     
  15. Verbose

    Verbose Chieftain

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    Isn't the problem that they already do, the traditionalists at least, i.e, they inhabit the fluid and mobile nation of the Sinti and Roma, which among other places happen to live inside yours, the Czech nation, which they consider hostile territory, the inhabitants of which are always fair game to rob and swindle?

    So they are already taking care of themselves all by themselves (and that's the point with them), and the problem is 1.) they consider you hostile, and 2.) you've no idea how to make them play according to your rules.
     
  16. nivi

    nivi Call me Ishmael

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    Ah, we haven't had an Israel thread for a long time, almost a week!



    The real question is, the one you've forgot to ask, do they even want a Gypsy nation?

    Not to mention a few lesser ones where the comparison fails completely.
     
  17. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    There is a huge difference between their way of life in Western Europe, where they retained their traditional, 'nomadic' way of life, and Central and Eastern Europe, where they've abandoned it.

    This is how they live now:




    Yes, the stuff under the windows is trash.
     
  18. Ansar

    Ansar Détente avec l'été

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    @Winner's pictures: That's disgusting! :dubious:
     
  19. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Luník 9, Roma ghetto in Košice, Eastern Slovakia.

    It's kinda extreme case, but the parts of Central European cities with significant Roma minority aren't exactly the most pleasant ones.
     
  20. CartesianFart

    CartesianFart Chieftain

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    What make me think that I have any say on whether an ethnic group can have their own nation?

    Spoiler :
    It is rather a futile of a question on your part to think of even proposing that WE can make any worthwhile decision on how our own country's foreign policy should do on regarding granting statehood to whoever complain of not having the priviledge. We are simple worker-bees not politicians.:lol:
     
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