Wow is about all I can say

[Felis Renidens]

I'm not complaining. I might have liked some small things to be otherwise (like making them more forgiving past aggressions) but I'm generally OK with it. And I am happy to know that it is possible to play the diplomacy game if you actually do care about it. It opens the way for a meaningful diplomatic victory in the future (which may result in me trying to care more about diplomacy).

Two things that might help without changing the system though are a button that lets me get to the regular diplomacy screen after an introduction or some other such notification (something like "actually, there is something I wanted to discuss with you" in addition to "goodbye") - I suppose this will help me remember to send delegations immediately upon meeting a civ rather than doing other stuff and forgetting about it, and perhaps a more convenient adviser telling me about things I can do to improve relations (it exists but does not fit well on my laptop screen).

---

I meet secondary agendas when they don't interfere (I like heavy industry) I suppose that's why I sometimes manage to be friendly with other civs. I may try to be more generous, maybe, it seems a good modifier. I already mentioned delagations. I try to remember but sometimes get distracted (the shame!) and then they get angry and won't accept it anymore. Libreating CS - requires certain circumstances - it needs to be captured, by a civ that is hostile to me, and close enough for me to go for it, but sure, I like liberating stuff. Sending trade routes - yeah, another things I shamefully neglect. I build a few internal routes (or maybe some to city states if I have a quest for it), enough to get me medieval fares and maybe by another one or two later. But those basically sound like good things to try.

 

[callan]

I am 100% with you @DWilson it seems those that genocide think it unfair everyone hates them and that diplomacy is broken because the AI cannot stop their continuous war. On that point, maybe that is the design to appease the bloodthirsty or maybe its just that the AI if tuned up more in this area will start coming down too hard on the more peaceful.
Its just people are not using it well enough because it takes additional time and effort. I myself have had to slow down and take time to get to grasp with it. I have even won a domination game with little warmongering points left. I can certainly take a civ capital while being in an alliance without it breaking. I can get some nice research off people, even while at war with others and my trade deals are in my favour once befriended. Thats the way it is designed in my view.

A strong dose of hasty generalisation with some strawmen thrown in for good measure. I don't doubt that one can absolutely prostitute oneself to gain the grudging, ephemeral friendship of some of the AI leaders. My point was that this process is neither reliable nor rewarding in game terms. It's a huge amount of effort being poured in to a black hole and even this is only true at lower difficulty levels, try making friends on Immortal or Deity.

None of which goes one jot towards addressing the actual point I made in my first post. The ceding mechanic does not do anything. Load a savegame you have where you are winning a war, sue for peace and get the cities ceded to you. Now load that game again, sue for peace and don't get the cities ceded. There will be no difference in how the enemy reacts to you, how much he likes you or how he interacts with you going forward. Ceding does not do anything in terms of gameplay, it's a junk option tacked on to add an appearance of depth that does not exist. That's the only point I was making in my original post and yet it's the only aspect of the conversation that remains unaddressed.

 

[Victoria]

wtf? If a civ does not cede a city to me it does not grow. The city still thinks of itself as part of the other civ.

That is the ceding mechanic

So no, not all penalties end when the war is over.
Also just having their city is -12 another after war penalty
And a Casus belli reason against you.

I did respond directly after you stated it that you were incorrect.

 

[callan]

wtf? If a civ does not cede a city to me it does not grow. The city still thinks of itself as part of the other civ.

That is the ceding mechanic

I'm afraid that is the popular misconception of the ceding mechanic, but not the reality. I invite you to try it again and see.

 

[Victoria]

Then it is broken because I have play tested that many times and it worked fine before the patch and I am sure I have tested it after.

You will also find many many old discussions about this so I am afraid it is not a misconception. Regar

I know the -12 is still there and the casus so your original statement is still incorrect.

 

[callan]

As I said, it's a very common misconception. But it has never been true. There was once a bug whereby you had to save and reload game after capture or you lost a turn of growth but they ironed that out early on. But since you are clearly determined to believe me an idiot or a liar I shall offer my proof and ask you do the same for your hypothesis.

Spoiler :

Mediolanum, property of the Japanese Empire by Right of Conquest. We can see this status is still disputed:

Let's go talk to Trajan. We can take all his savings as well as getting him to cede the city. He will not pay GPT:

Mediolanum is (still) ours. It will grow in 43 turns:

Now we reload. This time we will not ask him to cede the city. Bonus, we take all his GPT as well:

Mediolanum is (still) ours. It will grow in 43 turns:

Save game attached.

 

[Victoria]

I have tested it and you are correct it currently does not work as I believe it used to.

I do not believe you an idiot or a liar, that's a bit wrong to say. I will happily say I am an idiot if it never worked that way so I'll check the old posts but clearly I am not the only idiot out there.

 

[Victoria]

Fair play @callan I found the thread that explains why I have been getting the bug.

Now of your were not so negative with you comments you may find people a bit more responsive. Many people play the political side so its clearly not pouring effort down a black hole for them so try not to be rude about their gameplay and say its pointless.

I have had 5 allies on deity and even posted the screenshot in this thread for dwilson.

You called my fine examples of allies,research and benefitting deals generalisations, its a bit rough
You even had the indecency of calling my comments strawmen while my comments were not aimed at any 1 poster.

Lets just call this quits eh?

 

[callan]

I've reviewed and I can't find negativity in my posts, I feel I addressed the validity of the arguments and not the person making them. Reasonable people can disagree after all and my only goal in my first post was to try to correct this common misconception for a specific player. Much as I have seen you do for many other players on different matters. From my perspective someone then came in, said I was wrong and raised points tangential to mine as evidence. What resulted was a conversation at cross purposes but which I felt worth pursuing, mostly because I'm stubborn like that. It wasn't anything personal, by any stretch of the imagination but I've always felt that if you take a side in anything and believe you are right then you defend it. Generally a waste of time, in life or the internet but, like I said, I'm stubborn.

 

[Victoria]

fair enough @callan and respect, I am a touch autistic and emotional anyways. I swing with the weather. My post to dwislon you quoted was not aimed at anyone, I always try to bang an @ in there if its directed

 

[zxcvbob]

wtf? If a civ does not cede a city to me it does not grow. The city still thinks of itself as part of the other civ.

That is the ceding mechanic

So no, not all penalties end when the war is over.
Also just having their city is -12 another after war penalty
And a Casus belli reason against you.

I did respond directly after you stated it that you were incorrect.

Wait a minute, how does it work? When I'm at war with someone and I offer a peace deal, and they are not willing to cede any captured cities, doesn't that mean I have to return the city? (Generally I just take one or two nice cities and I want to keep them) There's a middle ground where the city is neither ceded nor returned? I'll have to try that...

Usually if they refuse to cede the cities, I start capturing and razing cities until either they change their mind or I annihilate them.

 

[Victoria]

The ceding should work like described but does not, it is like Callen said pointless.
If you leave cedeing out of the negotiations you will get a better deal amd have no penalty.

What was happening to me is a bug. If you do not choose to keep the city with the keep city option before negotiations then the city stays in occupied status.

So last night playing against Gorgo, I take her capital and one other city then I suggest peace. If I ask for both cities to be ceded she refuses. If I just ask for peace she accepts but the cities are no longer in occupied status

 

[Bad_Viceroy]

The ceding should work like described but does not, it is like Callen said pointless.
If you leave cedeing out of the negotiations you will get a better deal amd have no penalty.

What was happening to me is a bug. If you do not choose to keep the city with the keep city option before negotiations then the city stays in occupied status.

So last night playing against Gorgo, I take her capital and one other city then I suggest peace. If I ask for both cities to be ceded she refuses. If I just ask for peace she accepts but the cities are no longer in occupied status

That's odd, I've been getting the zero growth thing too post-patch, could have sworn I had it before too. Will check the bug thread but I thought this was a feature.

 

[Victoria]

It is a feature @Bad_Viceroy ... try keeping the city before doing peace deals. Seems to sort it out.

 

[legalizefreedom]

Problem is they continue to denounce for "occupying" a city they have ceded. What's the purpose of ceding then? So they hate you a little less?

That can't be intended.

That's not how it works. All penalties end once the war is over, regardless of whether the city has been ceded by the original owner.

That was the point of my post. I know how it should work and the mechanic makes sense, but it isn't working that way. Surely just not implemented yet.

I would also suggest the diplo hate isn't working yet either. They act as if they haven't ceded. When you cede you let it go and live with it.

 

[Victoria]

That was the point of my post. I know how it should work and the mechanic makes sense, but it isn't working that way. Surely just not implemented yet.

I would also suggest the diplo hate isn't working yet either. They act as if they haven't ceded. When you cede you let it go and live with it.

Agreed
The +12 for occupying one of their cities or the Cede or both are not working.
The fact that the Casus exists indicates to me that the Cede is not working but its just an assumption