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Wow, swords really do suck

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by noto2, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    You attacked a guy with copper with swords. Early copper is probably the worst case scenario for rushing, probably worse than founding religions, protective, or on a hill.

    Though even just 10 archers probably isn't rushable, you need collateral to deal with unit spammers efficiently.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Hasn't been my consistent experience in Kmod...

    They have programmed victory pursuit strategies, and BTS doesn't except culture. That's a fact, like it or not. Kmod AI *Will* tend to win sooner on a given difficulty too. You also have a higher chance of an AI leveraging advantage for a runaway position...though I still think they need to build up more and/or allocate more to their attacks.

    Should be "anti-runaway position bias". If it's actually playing well, that isn't always the human. In fact, this would be one of the very few ways to clamp down on someone who is being successful at war and would nerf what is easily the strongest approach in the game.

    But who are you kidding? There is already a tremendous amount of anti-human bias in the game. AI trying to win consistently would often target the other AI over the human with higher frequency (punish culture ****** instead of protecting them, dogpile on big civs, fewer PAvassals with worthless, backwards civs who don't contribute anything to them).
     
  3. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    I don't see how I could have improved the timing. I could have attacked ~7 turns earlier with only 5 swords, but I doubt that would have done any good. I could have waited ~5 turns to attack with 16-18 swords, but that would have been 11 turns he had copper hooked up instead of 5 (oh damn, I just realized 1 or both of those axes could have been an upgraded warrior, I forgot to check). And waiting to 16-18 swords would have been the absolute maximum amount of time I could have waited because I was running the science slider at 0 and still losing gold.
     
  4. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Did you not read my post? On anything higher than Emp you need catapults 100% of the time, and Monarch K-Mod is pretty much an AI between Emp, and Immortal.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    100% is too high.

    When you KNOW they don't have metal and their good cities aren't on hills, rushes are more viable.

    Like Vicawoo said though, copper is an awful thing for them to have and AI capitol BFC copper is even worse. AI metal is the only true hindrance to a sword rush. For example if you said "AI won't get metal until 500 BC for sure) then sword rushing would be a great tactic in a lot of games. It's just too easy to stand between cities and shred all the archers.

    I don't like doing it though. It's weak too much and the AI makes bum trades to get metal often. For every sword rush toku deity game I have, I have 50+ where I'm not willing to use sword rush at all, MAYBE excepting prats.
     
  6. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    I'm having doubts that it can work even when the target has no copper, though, on Kmod. The sheer number of archers produced is just enormous. Don't get me wrong, taking anything other than the capital is easy to do, but I'm talking about the capital. The problem is even if you skirt around the borders to the nearest point, there's going to be at least 3 turns from the point of DoW to reaching the capital, and in 3 turns the number of archers in said capital is going to go up drastically. Standing between cities to pick off archers? That would have put me into strike. If you've truly rushed, how can you afford to do that?
     
  7. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Isn't it awesome that the AI can trade Corn for Iron? The last time i bought iron from an AI i had to pay 3 resources + 77 gpt.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    If they are sticky in the capitol with 12 archers in kmod you can't do anything.

    If they're not and they move more like BTS AI, then you just go in a bit sooner and stand near a 2nd city with your swords...AI will try to shift archers there if you aren't "immediately threatening" the capitol, allowing you to fight 5+ archers in the open (try to block them off of defensive terrain).

    If you bank gold a bit while building up you should have plenty of time. If you don't need it, great, deficit research a trade chip tech after taking the cities.
     
  9. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    Someone should tell the writers of, well, every 4X game ever - because straight from Master of Orion, we've always had a diplomacy element, meaning the AI is not just playing to win; it will go to war or refrain from doing so for reasons unrelated to the pursuit of victory.

    It's almost as if that design is actually one that people enjoy.
     
  10. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Hmm well i would really like better AIs, no limits here basically for me.
    Cos playing only for winning is not what i enjoy vs. AIs, you get no reward or ladder points after all ;)
    Think i will get this K-mod now.

    On swords..needing IW hurts this unit, cos not sumthing you usually wanna tech early.
    Also Jumbos, with Ivory no need for adding them with Cat rushes.
    They can be okay with chokes thou, when you can control AI land so they get no metals and then just need an unit that can take out archers.
     
  11. Pengu

    Pengu Prince

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    Like he said if you have cats swords works just fine.
     
  12. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    I've no objection to a better AI tactically - one that pursues a war efficiently with the resources available, and so forth; nor to one that understands what the victory conditions are, and bears them in mind. But I've no desire to replicate the MP experience of playing exclusively with opponents with whom diplomacy is impossible because they don't like you or hate you, they just attack as the pursuit of victory demands.

    That's the worst of both worlds; I like boardgames like Illuminati or Diplomacy where one constantly jumps on the leader... because there's a fascinating interaction metagame there where you try to convince your fellow players that you aren't actually in the lead, or that they should be the one expending resources to bring down the leader, or that a temporary truce is in your mutual interests. But you can't do that interaction stuff with an AI.

    TMIT's at liberty to want to play Civ with none of the current diplomacy; but it doesn't follow that it would be fundamentally better for everyone and that the design of all 4X games is broken.
     
  13. shulgi

    shulgi Warlord

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    K-mod is not a total war game. Aside from worker stealing from the Chinese, I had no war in my current game until Justinian asked me to join his war against the Chinese in 1000 AD, that is, after a half dozen turns after I had bribed him to attack them. There were some other AI wars with Justinian getting the better of Shaka and Huayna setting Darius back. The AI is more dangerous in the early game especially the standard set of warmongers.

    K-mod is not a drastically different Civ4 than what we play, it is a patch focused on AI and tries to balance game concepts - improvements to serfdom, a few units, slight boost to Pro and Agg, and under the hood improvements ( it runs better than the base game) without changing the game too much from it's BtS foundations. In particular, trying to improve the AI's evaluation of war, also improvements have been made to improve the AI's ability to react to a sudden war - rapid or mounted attacks are slowly responded to as you all know and attempts have been made to improve this. K-mod seems to be very much an attempt at refining and improving BtS. There has also been some talk about whether ganging up on the game leader should be given some consideration, I think this should happen but we'll see where it goes. Diplomacy is, all in all, very similar to the base game.

    I have been around Civ4 less than many of you, it's obviously less than the seven years of many others. I am not a deity player and the deity players seem a bit more disinclined about this mod. I looked up the succssion game vranasm was in, some highly experienced players, I would very much like to hear more of his or their opinions.

    I understood that 3.19 was the last patch to BtS, is this right? BtS is the most interesting game of the Civ4 franchise, Civ5 is unlikely to top it though it'd be great if it did. And who knows when there might be a civ6 or what it might look like, there are serious attempts to improve civ4 and it's worth taking a look at if they are improvements.

    I don't know if Strat & Tips has discussed k-mod before, if anyone knows those threads or can find them that'd be great since they are probably called knights suck or something irrelevant like that
     
  14. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Hmm interesting mod for sure, but why not all BUG features -.-
    Improved UI? Feels like playing 3 years ago..
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    They left potential on the table. The goal here is not to limit flavor, but to make variant options viable.
     
  16. shulgi

    shulgi Warlord

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    A lot of them are still there, the alerts need to be selected in the bug options. The lack of the plotting fist is probably the controversial one as well as not knowing the number of cities the AI have. It's a bit tough to get used to this. It is probably supposed to encourage scouting enemy territory and/or the plotting fist is a pretty big advantage to the player.
     
  17. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    i had some troubles running BUG in custom assets folder and k-mod together...i had to actually move the folder to avoid some issues...

    and you have to manually recheck all options you like as was said by shulgi and yet still some improvements were lacking/were changed...

    for example don't be surprised you don't see number of cities from AI even in peace if you don't have visibility on the city.
     
  18. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Oki thanks guys..
     
  19. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Unit selection and queue hot keys actually work. Miles ahead of bug which does not fix them. Bug shows some things easier but id rather control and promote units consistently with features that work
     
  20. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    The only unit promotion trouble I've ever had is the promotion icons sliding over to the left 2-3 seconds after attaching a GG. I did that a couple of times, raged, reloaded the game, and learned to wait for it to happen before clicking on any promotions. I've never seen any other problems.
     

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