WW2-Global

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Rocoteh, Dec 19, 2004.

  1. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

    Joined:
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    Andreas68,

    As stated earlier: If those who play WW2-Global think that
    lethal land bombardment shall stay it will stay.

    No doubt airpower is the key to victory in this scenario and that
    is realistic.

    Looking forward to read the report on your current playtest.


    Rocoteh
     
  2. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    436
    Location:
    at the shores of Rhine
    I have a suggestion:
    Take away lethal land bombardment from any bomber with high bombard value. They still have their use without. Although beeing able to use a huge bomb load and inflicting lot of damage, they don't have the possibility to attack precise enough to finish off a unit.
    On the other hand, ground attack aircraft and dive bombers are designed to strike at targets they actually see and attack the units, not the area. As they usually have lower bombard value and range they are not overpowered with lethal land bombardment and still have a use.

    How about that?
     
  3. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    Stazro,

    I think it sounds like a good idea.

    Will have it in mind with regard to version 2.6.


    Rocoteh
     
  4. Uncle_Ted

    Uncle_Ted Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I had planned on making that change for my own version, but haven't had the time. I think it's a great idea.
     
  5. mcEvilly

    mcEvilly Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    The Dew Drop Inn
    1941 Week 39

    In the West -
    I the North Atlantic - The GE fleet (three Bismarks and a transport) sortie up the Irish channel. They are engaged by three lion class BB, 3 HCs, 10 DDs, 6 SS and a whole slew of airpower. Subs have no chance against them. They are also engaged by 8 artillery units over the next two turns. 3 Skuas shot down for 3 Bismarks and a transport. British fleet returns to port for repairs.

    Continuing to buildup bombers. Have 13 Lancaster and Halifaxes, another 7 Mosquitos. Once I hit 30, I’ll launch a single city bomber attack.

    Three American CVs are off the Atlantic coast of France. Large American naval presence in west Med. French have blocked access to east Med with fleet off Sicily

    The North Sea - continuous ASW warfare in the North Sea. Every 2 turns a U Boat launches out and damages a DD and is then promptly sunk.

    The AI does not coordinate mass amphibious or submarine warfare operations.

    In the UK, all my resources are going into Lion class BBs (3), 1941 DDs (2),Escort CV (3), Spitfire IX (3), and bombers. After I complete the bombers, I'll switch to Crusader tanks.

    Canada is still producing Crusader tanks, Polish and Canadian IN, and bombers. My Canadian produced units arrived in England (2 Crudader, 1 PO IN, 1 CAN IN, 2 Arty off).

    I have decided to invade Argentina. I contue my buildup in Brazil- 2 of 6 convoys from canada arrived. So far 8 Valentines and 4 Inf. It will take another 12 turns for all five others to arrive. Ass soon as they do, I'll pitch in with the Brazil (who has has a city captured and destroyed) and set about Argentina.
    Brazil just made peace with Argentina. I am occupying two hexes and will continue to build up forces. I need to wait until Week 42/ Week 1 to attack.

    Africa continues to produce a lot of tanks, SA Infantry, and a blend of fighters and bombers. All of these troops are going into Iraq and Palestine. Why? The Russians have conquored Turkey.

    In the East, the Commonwealth has taken Manila, Hainan, and Nanking. The IJN fleets does not mass but makes 4-6 ship sorties.

    India is producing a mix of tanks, Infantry, fighters, bombers and artillery.
    Australia is producing fighters,infantry and submarines.

    For the last quarter of 1941, my strategy is:

    In the West:
    1. Contain the German fleet. Need to work on that!
    2. Build the bomber force for anti shipping warfare and city reduction.
    3. Build up ground forces and prepare to defend SW Asia from the Russians and the UK from the GE
    4. Invade by turn 52/conquor Argentina by turn 14 1942
    5. Use Canada to reinforce the UK

    In the East:
    1. Attack and seize cities in Japanese held China.
    2. Continue to produce air units, armor and deveop Indian/Australian economy
    3. Capture Tawain (That clears the S China coast)

    I am working on 1943 Land . I just began production this past quarter on Lion class BBs, Crusader tanks, Spitfire IXs , escort carriers and artillery offensive units.

    I am still wary the Russians may actually attack me or the GE may travel through thier territory to do so. I have adopted a defensive posture in Europe and Africa (esp Kirkuk and Jerusalem). In Asia (and eventally South America) an offensive posture. Am considering invading Persia just to keep the Russians out and my routes to India open.

    Long range, I would like to drive the Japanese out of mainland Asia by NLT week 26 1942. I continue with "Japan First" strategy. I simply cannot compete yet with the GE on the ground - and am barely doing so at sea and in the air.

    I'll be back week 52 with an update.

    I like lethal land bombardment for CAS airframes. Would like to see increased AI ampfibious and Sub ability. Esp the ability to mass. Would be nice if sub maybe get a first shot or two in - ASW dependent.

    Anyway, really enjoying the scenario.
     
  6. somdnole

    somdnole Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
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    45
    Location:
    Southern Maryland
    Rocoteh -
    Hey, I just saw something I thought was odd, and I thought I'd bring it up - in my 2.4 game as Japan, I'm up to Week 16, 1945. For the past 10 turns or so, the Soviets have been at war with the Allies (but at peace with the Axis.)
    I noticed about 6 turns ago that someone had razed Belfast. (most likley the Sovs).Two turns ago, I noticed that the Soviets have captured Dublin!
    You've made the point on this board several times about the AI being unable to mount much of an amphibious operation, which makes this seem like such an odd occurrence to me. Ever seen/heard of the Brits losing a city in Great Britain to the Soviet AI?
    Regards,
    somdnole
     
  7. somdnole

    somdnole Chieftain

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    Location:
    Southern Maryland
    RE: Lethal Land Bombardment -
    My vote is to keep it in! I like the idea of removing the lethal ability from heavy bombers, but lethal bombardment is a key tactic in many instances.
     
  8. Gattamelata

    Gattamelata Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I like this approach a lot. The extreme long range bombers that have Lethal Land Bombard are extremely powerful, especially the American ones.

    I think it makes sense to give Lethal Land Bombard only to short-range air units that are dedicated to ground attack or dive bombing.
     
  9. somdnole

    somdnole Chieftain

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    Location:
    Southern Maryland
    McEvilly -
    Good strategy on keeping an eye on the Soviets. In my current game, they razed both Kirkuk and Jerusalem, plus a whole slew of British and French cities and towns in eastern Africa. The Commies will also almost certainly jump the Persians at some point, as well as swallowing up Sweden and probably Norway-Denmark. I've played this scenario 4 times now (to various stages of completion) and the Sovs ALWAYS attack Turkey and ALWAYS attack Sweden.
    I'm sure I'm not the first one to figure this one out, but I played an earlier version as the US - the Azores makes a great aircarft carrier for transport aircraft!
    Cheers, and happy hunting.
    somdnole
     
  10. againsttheflow

    againsttheflow unpolitically uncorrect

    Joined:
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    Location:
    northern CA

    I'm sad to hear it. :( What has made you think that Rocoteh?
     
  11. Gattamelata

    Gattamelata Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
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    56
    I have another question.

    I read in the notes for 2.5 that you made it so auto-production wonders won't make units if the city is owned by somebody besides the original owner (although how you did that, and how you made it not apply to the Baltic Wonder, is beyond my understanding).

    This seems to have a side effect of destroying the wonder whenever the city is taken. So, for example, the Chengdu Wonder autoproduced Chinese Infantry. When the Japanese take Chengdu, the wonder is destroyed. If the Chinese retake Chengdu, is the wonder restored?

    Also, this seems to mean that more cities get razed by the AI.

    I noticed this because I was sure that the Katmandu Wonder was an air trade wonder, but when I took Katmandu in my current Japanese game, there was no wonder in it. I started a British game, and the Katmandu Wonder is there. I think it was destroyed when I took Katmandu because it also autoproduces Gurkha Infantry.
     
  12. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    somdnole,

    It have never been reported earlier.
    A real surprise!

    The main problem with AI and amphibious warfare is that AI
    can not manage sustained campaigns.

    Best Regards


    Rocoteh
     
  13. Adler17

    Adler17 Prussian Feldmarschall

    Joined:
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    5,341
    Location:
    Schleswig- Holstein. Germany
    I am supporting the limitation of LL bombardment of planes. However, I don't think to delete it totally. The Ju 87, Hs 129, FW 190 G, Apache, Typhoon, and the Il2 and Il 10 should have LL bombardment. Add a Japanese plane, too for balance reasons. But only CAS planes should get it and then only the most devestating. No other plane though.
    I know, this is favouring Germany as the German player has much earlier and more planes with that ability, but the results of the Ju 87 justify it. At least that's the solution I made for AoI II.

    Adler
     
  14. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    7,618

    againsttheflow,

    Most of the time I do not care about this people.

    However now and then threads like "who is who" and
    "shall we establish a Hall of Fame" pops up at
    Civ III, Creation&Customization.
    In these threads the people I call "The Good Old Boys" always
    100% ignore my scenarios.
    These are not the only posters though:
    El Justo and Rhye once nominated me to a discussed
    Hall of Fame.
    I really appreciated that since I regard them as great creators.


    Rocoteh
     
  15. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    7,618
    Gattamelata,

    The Baltic wonder requires government: Fascism.

    On the Chengdu wonder as an example:

    Most of the time it will not be destroyed. It will not be seen on
    the screen though since the government is not adequate.
    Thus if the Chinese retake Chengdu the wonder will be restored.


    Rocoteh
     
  16. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

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    somdnole,

    There seems to a clear majority that thinks lethal bombardment
    should stay, so it will stay.

    Rocoteh
     
  17. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

    Joined:
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    7,618
    Adler,

    Good ideas I think.

    Will recheck this issue with regard to version 2.6.

    Also: Looking forward to the release of AoI II!

    Rocoteh
     
  18. Rocoteh

    Rocoteh Deity

    Joined:
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    7,618
    mcEvilly,

    Thank you for the report.

    "1941 Week 39

    In the West -
    I the North Atlantic - The GE fleet (three Bismarks and a transport) sortie up the Irish channel. They are engaged by three lion class BB, 3 HCs, 10 DDs, 6 SS and a whole slew of airpower. Subs have no chance against them. They are also engaged by 8 artillery units over the next two turns. 3 Skuas shot down for 3 Bismarks and a transport. British fleet returns to port for repairs."
    mcEvilly

    I guess there will be more raids like this.

    "Three American CVs are off the Atlantic coast of France. Large American naval presence in west Med. French have blocked access to east Med with fleet off Sicily"
    mcEvilly

    Seldom will US-AI focus on the Pacific.

    "The North Sea - continuous ASW warfare in the North Sea. Every 2 turns a U Boat launches out and damages a DD and is then promptly sunk.

    The AI does not coordinate mass amphibious or submarine warfare operations"
    mcEvilly

    That is a severe problem.

    "In the UK, all my resources are going into Lion class BBs (3), 1941 DDs (2),Escort CV (3), Spitfire IX (3), and bombers. After I complete the bombers, I'll switch to Crusader tanks.

    Canada is still producing Crusader tanks, Polish and Canadian IN, and bombers. My Canadian produced units arrived in England (2 Crudader, 1 PO IN, 1 CAN IN, 2 Arty off)."
    mcEvilly

    Sounds like a good production-strategy.

    "I have decided to invade Argentina. I contue my buildup in Brazil- 2 of 6 convoys from canada arrived. So far 8 Valentines and 4 Inf. It will take another 12 turns for all five others to arrive. Ass soon as they do, I'll pitch in with the Brazil (who has has a city captured and destroyed) and set about Argentina.
    Brazil just made peace with Argentina. I am occupying two hexes and will continue to build up forces. I need to wait until Week 42/ Week 1 to attack."
    mcEvilly

    It will be interesting to hear how large forces you will encounter in Argentina.


    "Africa continues to produce a lot of tanks, SA Infantry, and a blend of fighters and bombers. All of these troops are going into Iraq and Palestine. Why? The Russians have conquored Turkey."
    mcEvilly

    That will mean problems!

    "In the East, the Commonwealth has taken Manila, Hainan, and Nanking. The IJN fleets does not mass but makes 4-6 ship sorties."
    mcEvilly

    That will not work well for Japan-AI.

    "For the last quarter of 1941, my strategy is:

    In the West:
    1. Contain the German fleet. Need to work on that!
    2. Build the bomber force for anti shipping warfare and city reduction.
    3. Build up ground forces and prepare to defend SW Asia from the Russians and the UK from the GE
    4. Invade by turn 52/conquor Argentina by turn 14 1942
    5. Use Canada to reinforce the UK

    In the East:
    1. Attack and seize cities in Japanese held China.
    2. Continue to produce air units, armor and deveop Indian/Australian economy
    3. Capture Tawain (That clears the S China coast)"
    mcEvilly

    This Japan-first strategy should work well.

    "I am working on 1943 Land . I just began production this past quarter on Lion class BBs, Crusader tanks, Spitfire IXs , escort carriers and artillery offensive units.

    I am still wary the Russians may actually attack me or the GE may travel through thier territory to do so. I have adopted a defensive posture in Europe and Africa (esp Kirkuk and Jerusalem). In Asia (and eventally South America) an offensive posture. Am considering invading Persia just to keep the Russians out and my routes to India open."
    mcEvilly

    I think you are right.
    The risk for a Russian attack is probably very high.

    "Long range, I would like to drive the Japanese out of mainland Asia by NLT week 26 1942. I continue with "Japan First" strategy. I simply cannot compete yet with the GE on the ground - and am barely doing so at sea and in the air."
    mcEvilly

    Agree. Japan first should work best.

    "I'll be back week 52 with an update.

    I like lethal land bombardment for CAS airframes. Would like to see increased AI ampfibious and Sub ability. Esp the ability to mass. Would be nice if sub maybe get a first shot or two in - ASW dependent."
    mcEvilly

    I am considering a new invasion-fleet unit with huge transportcapacity.
    In such a case the idea would be that the human player should abstain
    from building it.

    "Anyway, really enjoying the scenario"
    mcEvilly

    I am glad to hear that.

    Thank you and welcome back with more reports.


    Rocoteh
     
  19. Andreas68

    Andreas68 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    43
    If I wait until the war is over, it'll be at least a month from now, so why not issue a report on what has happened in my playtest (playtest? it's gaming!! :goodjob: ) up until now;

    I am playing as Germany on a medium difficulty.

    Started with conquering Poland in about 3 or 4 turns, can't remember anymore. I always attempt to use massive force, first bombing enemy units and cities, while bringing artillery closer and then finishing the remainder off with tanks and infantry. During fighting in Poland, I stayed realively quiet on the western front, only doing small raids keeping the Dutch and Belgium within their boundary.

    Next was Netherland and Belgium, then I attacked France - keeping the Italians off Marseilles was a bit tricky, as I intended to conquer it for myself, to have a nice access to the western part of the Mediterranean. Sometime in between I declared war on Denmark/Norway - they detected my mines in the Skagerrak and where more or less asking for it. Finland joined and took the northern cities, with me getting the southern ones - I am happy with that, up north it's too cold anyway.

    Next was Greece, including Crete, and Cyprus from the British. Cyprus makes a nice airbase to attack French Damascus, and for disturbing the British in Iraq, bombing their oil resources. crete on the other hand is perfect for disrupting British shipping via the Suez canal.

    In the west, the British used their Home Fleet to bombard Bremen and the conquered coastal cities of the Benelux down to almost rubbles. Only by a massive effort with submarines and bombers I managed to fight them off, and in the process almost the entire British fleet was destroyed.

    I realized I can't go east unless Britain was defeated, and decided to invade. Invading the southern coast was impossible, first because there were too many fixed coastal defence left (I wish there were some graphics of fortifications to use, rather than the ships), second because I reckoned the British will concentrate their forces there. So I planned a invasion up north at Edinburgh, via Norway, and in doing this, luring the British forces up north, exposing their south.

    Building up my transport fleet took time, also I reckoned I'd need a couple carriers as well for close air support. When the invasion started, the British just had started to build Valentine tanks, which turned out to actually being hard to tackle, to my surpirse. Okay I invaded Edinburgh, and simultaneously sent a marine force up to Scapa Flow, which I took with the first attack. I also sent a "suicide force" to the southern coast near London, keeping the British busy there as well.

    Edinburgh fell, and next was the western Scottish city. I lost a lot of Panzer IIIh on the British island, but my supply line via Copenhagen/Oslo/Bergen and transports to Edinburgh worked wonder. It was a long fight, but finally the British were defeated and ousted from the islands, its fleet remainders spread out over the oceans, its submarines destroyed, its air force reduced to a couple fighters.

    At one point the Swiss decided to declare war on me.... :eek:

    Mid-42 I controlled all of central Europe including Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, southern Norway, Sweden, Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, France, Switzerland, Britain and Ireland, and even Reykjavik - I took it to prevent its use as a allied bomber base.

    My policy so far towards Spain is too keep them in line, i.e. to keep them from doing anything. I trade some resources with them, but have never attempted to drag them to my side - wouldn't work anyway, since during my Norway campaign, as Norway asked for peace, I granted it but attacked again within 20 turns, so now I can forget about free passage through foreign territory, even Italy doesn't want to grant it. But hey, I play as Germany, so I am bound to be the bad guy...

    My policy towards Turkey is to invade them after I finished my Russian campaign.

    In the east, the Russians were building up their forces, and so was I. I filled the border with Security Divisions, building three lines of troops there, just to keep them from surprisingly attacking me. I sent almost all new units to the east, tanks, planes, infantry. At one point, Russia was even friendly to me, Stalin (with Katharinas face :lol: ) was smiling whenever I cintacted him. Russia's force was pretty impressive;

    .) Around 700 infantry
    .) 170 T-34
    .) 150 KV-1
    And loads of other stuff.

    Week 25 1942 or so, Russia decided to declare war on Sweden, and this was my red line. I did not want Russia to get bases north of my central cities, threatening me day in day out. So I watched them sendiong almost all their tanks into northern Swedish territory, also sending out the fleet from Murmansk. As mentioned in a earlier post, one of their carriers ran into one of my submarines (the so-called sub bug? If it is a bug, I'd say it's the best one a I ran over - it's a perfect way to get civs declaring war on you!) and Russia declared war.

    What shall I say, Russia started with using its crappy bombers, and lost them in dozens. 3 turns into the Russian war they had no bombers left, their fighters - about 35 I-16 and a couple Yaks diminished as well. I placed a priority in destroying the T-34's, bombing them without care of losses. It's now week 15 1943 and the front runs as follows, north to south;

    I hold everything including;

    .) Leningrad
    .) Yaroslavl
    .) Gorki
    .) Kazan
    .) Kujbysjev
    .) Stalingrad
    .) Astrachan
    .) Baku (or is it Grozny? One Russian city left between my territory and Persia)

    I have now started my attack on Sverdlovsk and Chelyabinsk, and plan to take Perm in the north, and Aralsk and Krasnovodsk in the south as well. But I want to stop my advance there, not getting beyond the Ural. Russia's force now is reduced to

    .) 203 Infantry
    .) 17 T-34
    .) 25 Guards Infantry
    .) about 15 or so Mig-3
    .) Not a single KV-1 left

    Moscow, that's now a Russian enclave within my territory. I keep a ring of beleaguering infantry, and stationed Ju-87's to bomb any unit which might try to get out of Moscow. It's still Russia's capital, and I want to keep it that way - in a earlier post here one posted that having the capital of an enemy civ isolated, keeps it from building certain units. Is this true?

    What can I tell about my Allies?

    Italy is, well, yes, there. It's tanks are crap, and Italy spent years and years trying to get Gibraltar. Right now I am there, and managed to destroy the fortress, and Gibraltar will be mine in one or two turns. Somalia was lost fast, and Italy only keeps Bengazi and the other town east of it. Tripoli is in US hands, which bugs me, as the US use it as a bomber base - Liberators now bombing Sardinia, and Italian held Corsica - the only city Italy managed to conquer.

    Japan is at a stalemate with China, nothing happening there. Japand didn't manage to take Hongcong, even losing 2 cities to the British. But Japan invaded the Philippins, Dutch East Indies, Singapore, never managed - or even attempted to - take Hawaii, and now lost Kwajalein to the US.

    Finland suffered hard, losing 2 cities to Russia - sorry can't remember the names now, the ones en route to Sweden - which I now recinquered fro Russia. When Murmansk and the Russian city south of it (Krem?) is taken, I plan to hand over the entire territory to Finland, including their own 2 cities.

    The US was sending the occasional carrier plus 2 destroyers to the French coast, and were frequently sunk. Now, the northern Atlantic filled with submarines as "early warning posts", I am aware of any naval movement, and can react quickly - my fleet consists of 3 carriers, 5 Bismarcks, 2 Hindenburgs and smaller vessels.

    From gameplay, I encounterd no inconsistencies, no bugs, no oddities - yes the AI is crap at naval operatiosn, but that's not your fault, that's the AI - and overall I enjoy this scenario like no other before. I might not be a frequent poster here, and even less known here, but I play Civilization since ages, and this one is a very nice experience.

    Also I need to say that my WW2-Global differs completely in terms of graphics - I separated all the ship classes and tossed in Wyrmshadow ships, also did the same with planes and tanks (and Mobile Artillery) if necessary. It's so much better to actually see a Texas battleship when it is one, or being able to recognize a bomber. But I know that when the scenario was released, many of the needed graphics weren't available. For the terrain, I use Aares de Borg's. I've changed nothing at all in the unit stats except improving the Japanese Yamato BB, which I thought to be a bit underrated.

    Keep up the good work Rocoteh and don't let anyone drag you down. Your scenario is a masterpiece!
     
  20. Tomislav

    Tomislav Inkal

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia

    Yes, Mr. Rocoteh :goodjob:

    The Lurker
     

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