WW2 Tank Elimination

[CaptainLost]

After looking at this poll and some elimination games played on various forums, I decided to start a game of WW2 tank elimination.
Rules:
Each person can post once every 24 hours. With each post, you can pick two tanks that you like and add one point to each, and pick two tanks you don't like and take one point away from each. You should give reasons for why. You can also give two points to one tank, or take two points away from one tank.

Highlight tanks that you give points to in Green and tanks you take points away from in Red. Highlight corrections in Blue. Each tank starts with 15 points.

T-34/76 15
T-34/85 15
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 15
Panzer VI Tiger I 15
Panzer VI Tiger II 15
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 15
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 15
M26 Pershing 15
M3 Stuart 15
M4 Sherman Firefly 15
7TP 15
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 15
T-26 15

Almost forgot to mention, once a tank reaches zero, it is eliminated completely. May seem obvious but thought I'd mention it for those who have never seen this done before

 

[privatehudson]

T-34/76 15
T-34/85 16
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 15
Panzer VI Tiger II 14
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 15
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 15
M26 Pershing 15
M3 Stuart 15
M4 Sherman Firefly 15
7TP 15
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

Deducted points from the German heavies because frankly whilst they have a fearsome reputation which was for the most part reflected in their combat performance, Germany already had very good and proven AFVs that had a far better all round performance. In the case of the two I've selected I'd rate the Panther and Jagdpanther as superior all round vehicles. The heavies were overkill since the Panther could engage the majority of allied tanks at a distinct advantage or at least on equal terms, whereas the 88mm gun on the Jadgpanther was quite capable of knocking holes in any allied tank unfortunate enough to run into it.

Added points to the Panther for the above reasons. It had teething problems when rushed into use at Kursk, but after that became a superb all round tank and one that the Germans actually churned out in reasonable numbers (for them 6,000 in 2.5 years is no poor showing). Also added a point to the T34 as its unquestionably one of the best all round tanks of the war.

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 15
T-34/85 16
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 16
SU-76 16
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 15
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 15
M26 Pershing 15
M3 Stuart 15
M4 Sherman Firefly 15
7TP 15
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I hit both Tigers because they required massive maintenance and were very unreliable; and they were so big and clunky that they tore up roads.
I gave one to the T-70, the Tiny Tank That Could with its very impressive frontal armor. I also gave one to the SU-76, which was a very fast and relatively well-armored tank destroyer with a pretty good gun, which makes it one of the best tank destroyers of the time.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

T-34/76 16
T-34/85 16
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 16
SU-76 16
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 15
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 15
M26 Pershing 15
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

The T-34's the undisputed champ, but I went with the early model. The upgunned versions were better tanks, but by 44-45 the Red Army was going to win. The T-34/76 was a critical component of crushing the blitzkrieg in the years when it mattered the most.

Sherman Firefly: A great example of making an effective weapon when you need it.

M3 Stuart: Undergunned, underarmored, and not ideal for recon, tank combat, or much else. You know it's bad when a nation embroiled in a titanic struggle for its very existence asks you to please stop sending them.

7TP: Yeah, I know it's better armed than German training tanks pressed into combat service. But with its pitifully low numbers, sending these things to the front is like charging tanks with, well, you know...

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 16
T-34/85 16
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 16
SU-76 16
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 14
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 16
M26 Pershing 14
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I gave one to the Hetzer because it was an extremely effective tank destroyer, and one of the most common, as it was able to destroy most Allied non-heavy tanks while still protecting its crew better than other tank destroyers.
I also gave one to the Hellcat, because it was also an extremely effective tank destroyer, as it was so dang fast it could dance around other tanks.
I took one from the Pershing, because it was insanely slow.
I also took one from the base M4 Sherman because it caught fire a lot, so much so that it was nicknamed by the British after a famous lighter, the Ronson (which had the slogan "Lights up the first time, every time").

 

[MilesGregarius]

T-34/76 17
T-34/85 16
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 16
M26 Pershing 14
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

Had to return one to the base M4 as it did not actually burn more often than its contemporaries, and the late models [M4A3(75)w] rectified that so that it was as survivable as other late war tanks. Also, the strength of its base design is what allowed it to be continually upgraded for use all the way into the 1970s.

And as AnthonyBoscia said, the T-34/76 was the real game-changer back in '41-42.

The SU-76 gets down graded as it was not particularly effective, and was considered a death trap by its crews. The Soviets had much better TDs in the SU-85 and, especially, the SU-100.

The T-70 gets down voted because its mobility was not much better than the T-34's. The Soviets even stopped producing them when they realized that the T-34 could fill any role the T-70 was meant for - and many more besides.

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 17
T-34/85 16
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 16
M26 Pershing 14
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I believe you meant this ^^

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 18
T-34/85 17
Panzer I 15
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 15
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 16
M26 Pershing 12
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I couldn't decide which T-34 I liked better, so I gave one to both. The T-34/76 was very good just as Miles and Anthony said, and the T-34/85 had a better gun as well as other changes that made it a better tank in general.
I've taken another two from the Pershing...5 mph off-road is not good for a tank.

 

[MilesGregarius]

T-70 15

I believe you meant this ^^

Correct.

 

[GoodGame]

T-34/76 18
T-34/85 17
Panzer I 14
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 14
Panzer VI Tiger II 13
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 12
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

IMPORTANT TANKS on Western Front, and successful export vehicles.

Well the Pz.I certainly took place in WW2 and earlier. But not an impressive vehicle.

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 14
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 16
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 15
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 12
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

It's probably well-known by now I'm a major T34 fanboy, simply because these just struck the right balance in terms of speed, attack prowess, protection and ease of production. Likewise, I am partial against both versions of the Tigers for scoring in that department.

 

[CaptainLost]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 14
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 14
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 16
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 15
IS-2 15
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 12
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 16
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I'm giving one to each Sherman because of their amazing ability to be mass-produced easily and relatively cheaply. No matter how good a Panther is one-on-one, it is much harder to stand up against five or ten Sherman tanks, especially the easy eight with the upgraded gun.

For those reasons I've taken two from the Panther, because it was so complicated and hard to manufacture.

 

[Tahuti]

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 14
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 14
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 16
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 15
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 11
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 17
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I'm going to give some love to the IS 2 and Sherman Firefly for being very decent but overlooked tanks. Minus points for the M26 Pershing and KV-2 for being not much more than gigantic husks that had little practical value overall.

 

[privatehudson]

For those reasons I've taken two from the Panther, because it was so complicated and hard to manufacture.

I'd say that's a little harsh considering they built about 6,000 of them in less than three years, but only 9-10,000 Panzer IVs despite that tank being in production for the whole war. The number of Panthers built also compares favourably with the number of Panzer IIIs, with roughly equal numbers of each, despite the Panzer III being in production for much longer.

These remarks are much more relevant far more to any one of the heavy AFVs the Germans produced than the Panther.

 

[Tahuti]

These remarks are much more relevant far more to any one of the heavy AFVs the Germans produced than the Panther.

Well, I'd say the Panther was by far the best German tank of the war, with only the Panzer IV coming close. However, you have to note that discussions about German tanks are plagued by a totally unjustified mystique that surrounds them. To put it bluntly, WWII German tank design in general just sucked, especially when compared to the Soviets, who arguably were the true Panzer masters of the war. British tank designs were pretty decent as well, such as the Matilda, and later on, the A34 Comet and the Firefly (and the Centurion, though that one wasn't actually deployed).

Germany got its "magical Panzer" reputation because the Germans were better able to utilise their tanks than any other belligerent, but that's about it: The French (yeah, surrender jokes, yippy-kay-yay...) had much better tank designs than the Germans but simply failed to use them effectively. The native Polish designs like the 7TP could certainly give a decent match to the Panzer III, though the Poles just did not have enough of them. Idem dito for the British, who had the Matilda II, but again, not a lot of those.

The Panzer IV was certainly decent for its time, and besides the Panzer V more or less the only German AFV design that wasn't BS. However, because Hitler wanted to focus on land-battleships that were awfully unreliable, the Panzer IV concept wasn't further developed upon. And besides the Panzer V, did not produce any tank designs that were particularly great or useful after that.

Ironically, while the Germans are mystified for their horrible tank designs, they did produce the StG 44, which might very well be the best small arm of the war. However, you don't hear anything about that.

 

[r16]

might be because Russians based the AK-47 on it , while even the FN FAL was to use its ammunition . When you are selling something revolutionary , you don't really want to talk about its descendants . For German development of tanks , the 3 man turret is deserving praise on its own , even if there should have been previous types as well .

 

[privatehudson]

KG: I don't necessarily disagree with that general theme, I just find it a bit unfair to mark a tank down twice for something that is quite untrue and far more relevant to numerous other tanks than the Panther

 

[CaptainLost]

KG: I don't necessarily disagree with that general theme, I just find it a bit unfair to mark a tank down twice for something that is quite untrue and far more relevant to numerous other tanks than the Panther

I marked it down because I was comparing it to the Sherman...perhaps I should have worded that a bit differently?
I compared the Sherman and the Panther specifically because as has been said, the Sherman was the best American tank of the war and the Panther was the best German tank of the war. And, I was using manufacturing numbers in that particular post. This is a game of elimination, not a game of "which tank is best overall", and so I picked one factor and based my decision on that factor. For a "which tank is best" fight between the Panther and the Sherman, I would have considered many more factors.

I'd say that's a little harsh considering they built about 6,000 of them in less than three years, but only 9-10,000 Panzer IVs despite that tank being in production for the whole war. The number of Panthers built also compares favourably with the number of Panzer IIIs, with roughly equal numbers of each, despite the Panzer III being in production for much longer.

6,000 in less than three years is nothing compared to more than 50,000 in the same amount of time. That is the entire reason I took off the points and gave some to the Sherman.
Also, I was not aware that the Panther was produced more efficiently than the Panzer IV. Was this because the Panther was easier to manufacture, or were there other factors involved?

Anyway, continuing the elimination:

T-34/76 19
T-34/85 18
Panzer I 14
Panzer II 15
Panzer III 15
Panzer IV 15
Panzer V Panther 14
Panzer VI Tiger I 13
Panzer VI Tiger II 12
T-70 15
SU-76 15
M3 Lee 15
M4 Sherman 16
M4A3E8 Sherman 16
M24 Chaffee 15
Hetzer 16
KV-1 15
KV-2 14
IS-2 16
IS-3 15
Matilda 16
Cromwell 15
Churchill III 15
M18 Hellcat 17
M26 Pershing 9
M3 Stuart 14
M4 Sherman Firefly 18
7TP 14
Type 95 Ha-Go 15
Jagdpanzer IV 15
Jagdpanther 15
Jagdtiger 14
T-26 15

I'm giving a point to the Matilda for its excellent armor and one to the Firefly for its excellent gun. I'm taking two from the Pershing because, as well put by Kaiserguard:

M26 Pershing...not much more than gigantic husks that had little practical value overall.

 

[MilesGregarius]

The Pershing was in no way a "giant husk that had little practical value". It came too late in the war to have much impact, but it fought effectively in Korea. Further, it gave birth to the M46/47, M48, and M60 series of tanks that would serve the US Army, NATO, Israel, and other allied nations to this day.

 

[r16]

Also, I was not aware that the Panther was produced more efficiently than the Panzer IV. Was this because the Panther was easier to manufacture, or were there other factors involved?

ı would say this actually "proves" an inefficiency for Panther considering the jump the German arms manufacturing achieved under Speer . But then we must also consider Panther was far "bigger" than the Pz IV . The engine was twice the power ; the recoil of the long 75 might have required far more impressive hydraulics in the recoil system , the fire control system -however rudimentary in 1943- would have to be far better and so on .

the Pershing was the tank the US could have been fielding in 1943 and thrashing the Germans all around . Actually a company's worth or so were given a specific "Animal Hunting" mission , looking for Panthers and Tigers to destroy , for post-war bragging rights . The company representative put some German helmets to a distance of 625 or so metres and the gunners were most impressed in that they could actually hit the helmets with 90 mm fire . A capability in accuracy unavailable until then obviously . Anyhow it went on like a breeze , they were getting the Germans right and left . Until they got ambushed . ı might be wrong in thinking it's in Hunnicutt but the German weapon which engaged was believed to be 150mm . 1946 could have been an interesting year