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[Xtended] Download and Changelog

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by esvath, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Good catch. I will make these promotions for Vengeance discipline.

    My plan is to put stronger heroes on later techs. Os-Gabella should be one of the stronger heroes. Gilden is "just" another archer. These heroes might need balancing, though, both on their raw strength, their promotions/gears and their unique utility.

    IIRC, it is impossible to make promotion that allows units to climb mountain. I have to define this ability in UnitInfos. But giving late game Khazad unit this ability is fine, IMO. Maybe the Hornguard? Or the Myconids?
     
  2. Vital Brasil

    Vital Brasil Chieftain

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    Thanks !

    I think it's fair that stronger heroes would require later techs, but i personally don't like the idea of beginning with a hero, or being able to build them right in the first turn. I think every hero should require a specific tech (maybe a few exceptions, if based on lore or to give some flavour to a specific civ). Sure, Gilven Gilveric has no special ability, but that's why he should be unlocked by an early military tech, like archery

    Having a hero by your side right at the beginning of the game helps enormously when clearing barbarian lairs, so i think it's a good thing to put some "effort" to get it.


    I am fine with this. Maybe give ths ability to dwarven shadow as well ?

    Edit: Actually i would love to see dwarven rangers being able to move trough mountains. I don't know, but i don't feel right that a dwarf ranger can't climb mountains.

    But to apply this change, i think it would be needed to create a new unit called dwarven ranger, unlocked by the ranger's guild.

    Anyway, feel free to do whatever you feel is the best.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  3. Ogi123

    Ogi123 The End is the Beginning is the End

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    If we are taking about improvements and terrain why not loose restrictions somewhat?

    -trade post buildable on grassland/fertile grass
    -same with pasture

    Main target here is to make better use of favoured improvement, currently as gigori for example I prefer plains start, because with grassland I cannot build trading posts.

    On the other things, I presume that settling problem and barbarian cities problem is in DLL and therefore unsolvable?
    Radical idea: maybe roll back to 4.1 version without CarnivalBizzare changes and build up on this version?
     
  4. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    There are lots of bug fixes and general stability improvement in 5.0 DLL so while we can roll back to 4.1, I am very reluctant to do so.

    The restriction on improvement is there to prevent same improvement spam and to force players to think carefully on where to settle the next city.
    Usually civs spawn at game start in places with terrains allowing for their favourite improvement. If you found a civ's starting location is not optimal for its favourite improvement please inform me.

    Not a big problem, as long as the unit graphic model is available, making a new unit is just copy-pasting xml and can be done in minutes. I'll look at Khazad's units and see which unit(s) will get mountain climbing.
     
  5. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Chieftain

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    - That's very good, but the problem it's the Sheaims will have some herbs but will have very few usage for it : Garden (it cost 1000 herb), does not really feat to them, or the butcheies buildings, which are completely useless as the hell land destroy all the food ressources the butcher could provide them.

    I understand the mirror idea with the Slavery guild. But here are the problem :

    - First, as I said before, Sheaims or any evil civ with some plantations (if you are in jungle/marsh for exemple) will not been able to exploit the Herb for anything than Garden and the two food buildings (Butchery + I don't remember the other name).

    - Two, sometimes you begin in a jungle/marsh start. It's the essence of a game to adapt to the situation and change your strategy. If I begin in a mountaign region withone wine, I will always build a sage district. If I am with 3 food ressources, I will probably go to Noble, and take Slavery guild If I can. But if I begin in a jungle start and I am Evil, I cannot pick Herbalist guild, so I cannot boost my plantations and open access to some equipements.

    - It's fun to have access to some herbs equipement. It's not a guild which you can exploit to grow or become strong. Contrary to the Slavery guild, who I understand should not be accessible to Good civilization. So it's not really a mirror situation, with Evil cannot take Herbalism and Good the Slavery.

    - Even if Evil civs could take Herbalism, they wouldnot be able to adopt the special health civic they will unlock, as they are evil. For all these reasons I would find good to open access to Herbalism to any alignement.

    Giving Pasturage to Jotnar is logical, but there will be a problem with their citizen growth, no ? Because if it's 5 per pop and not 3 per pop, pasture will not provide enough food. Pasture generaly give only 2 food (1 for plain, 1 only from pasture). I don't know exactely what will be the problem, but I think growing may be a real problem. Maybe giving them the underground source as immediate buildable improvement, or reducing the food they consume from 5 to 4 ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  6. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Second to open Healers Guild for evil Civs.
     
  7. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

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    I found that as the Lanun, I could build maybe 1-2 trading centers in all of my ~10 early cities. I wasn't near the desert, most terrain was grassland and the few plains were overwhelmingly on hills. Though the "true" favourite of Lanun is water tiles/pirate port anyway, so it's not like it's THAT bad, you need some way to gain ressources.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  8. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    How about make Austrin cities small by default (like 6 pop cap) and make it possible to grow further having certain buildings/projects in the city? -50% maintenance AND +2 trade routes is very powerful.

    Smashing! :D.

    Great idea. This would roughly make statistical Jotnar city 40% smaller in population. Like the idea.

    Did you mean per city population or per city culture level?


    Makes sense. There are always Potions of Strength for that and one would not HAVE to focus on military strength techs.


    IMHO Miner trait is weak and should not be one of the main traits of leader.
    How about giving Letigo Industrious/Emergent?

    I must ask that, as I do not usually play Religion-heavy civs, is it not too low?
    Should not GP's sacrifice be more effective? (2000/3000)?


    Should not that limitation change Tower Shield's boni to +20% against Archers and +10% defense bonus?

    Fixed how? What was wrong with those? Now they give +50 (+5/level) culture every victory?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  9. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    If 8 pop cap and -50% maintenance and +2 trade routes is too powerful, I might reduce it to 6 pop cap.

    Per city cultural level.

    There is another Luchuirp leader with Industrious already. I try to avoid duplicate trait in a civ, if possible.
    Maybe boost Miner trait to give 2 metal for each mine?

    Divine Intervention used to sacrifice GP at any times, in any city, for 1500 Faith. In early game, that can be used to rush buy Sacred Knowledge and casting miracles. Cutting that down to 1000 makes the early game benefit not too OP. It's on the same level with Great Bard's Tale of Legend, iirc.

    I made mistake, using BARD in Gladiator's code, so Bard gets double culture (from Bard's code and Gladiator's code) while Gladiator gets none.
     
  10. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    That might work. Still, Miner trait is pretty weak as buildings do not cost metal in general and Metal is plentiful anyway.
    How about to have some twist with Letigo i make it pretty unique as far as Khazad go? I cannot remember off the bat what other leaders have as Traits but maybe get Letigo a bit of "Dark" Khazad flavour? Evil alignment, some "aggression" Trait(s)?

    I did not realise those have 8 pop cap. 8+ might suggest they can grow more.
    How about that:
    • Make pop cap really small (4/5/6?).
    • Retain settlement bonus at suggested -50% maint. and having +2 trade routes.
    • Make pop cap higher by using buildings (unlocked pretty early/available straight away) - something akin to Dural old (?) mechanic?
    • Have a hard pop cap at 10 - attainable with a bit of difficulty and effort (not too much though) - maybe only cities with Noble District could get 10?
    I must admit Austrin have always had a certain appeal and I am looking forward to play those after changes are made.
     
  11. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I was thinking about allowing Austrin cities to grow past
    Yes, that was Dural's old mechanic. I'll run some play test to see whether we need to increase/decrease pop cap from 8.

    RE: Letigo and Miner
    - Miner trait now requires no yield to build Mining Guild, Shaft Mine and Deep Mine.
    - Letigo is back Industrious/Miner and Beeri is back Financial/Ingenuity.
     
  12. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    Is it possible to make pasture be buildable on the hellish version of plains? If you're stuck with a city in a region with plains and they get converted to hellterrain, you have a hard time to make your city grow to a reasonable size, even with sacrifice of the weak, since you can only build quarries and trading posts there.

    In my mind it also doesn't make sense for evil civs to be able to adopts Healer Guild. Trying to be healthy is in my opinion not an evil but a good thing. Good civs cant adopt slavery, so it's just fair that evil civs cant adopt some guild aswell.
    And if you're for example playing as Sheaim, there are uses for herbs. You need them to build/upgrade magical units and the garden is also useful for them, since you often need more happiness/healthiness when adopting ashen veil and/or slavery.
    One could maybe think about adding some demonic potion thingy to the ashen veil religion, to give herbs some other use when playing with Ashen veil and using a plantation strategy.
     
  13. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    Great idea! Something like (+x Unholy, removed after battle), (+1 Unholy, -1 Str, +X% attack strength), etc.
     
  14. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Chieftain

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    Welcome back Esvath. Glad to see someone working on this again.

    Quick question, if I may:
    Has the exuberant City Maintenance after pop 10 been fixed?

    Asking because in the last version there really was no reason to get any city past pop 10.
    Sure, production was increased so units could be built faster in the much higher than 10 pop cities but having 10 cities building 10 units in 5 turns for a lot less cost than 1 city building 10 units in 10 turns... well, not much more to say about that.

    If either City Maintenance increased more before pop 10 so the difference with going over 10 wasn't as big, or if the maintenance over pop 10 was reduced to make it more feasible to have higher pop.
    The old mechanic was, I seem to remember, to have (Cities*1gold) in maintenance in each city, capped at 10 gold per city (so 20 cities had 10 gold maintenance each) until reaching pop 10, so no increase in costs for higher population until then.
    Upon reaching pop 11 though the maintenance in that city soared, basically first doubling and then increasing at an ever increasing rate after that.
    As it's based on memory I could be off by a bit, and I don't have the exact numbers, but I do remember that going anywhere past 10 in pop limited you tremendously.

    Cheers
     
  15. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I disagree that salon and public school and university is mid-game. in my usual games, those are late game.
    so having 1 or 2 cities having that much science output late game is not so awful.
    further, having food+health+happies enough to get 20 pop in a science city is really not at all midgame for most civs/game-play.
    so I don't see any issue with those values (especially when one look at the cost of late-game military / arcane techs)

    I did not notice that point.
    I kinda disagree.
    full +2 military techs give +30 str late game... so starting "no-yield" units can get, late game 37str ! much greater than an Elder Troll
    and mid game, it's usual to have at least +10/+14 str.
    IMO, the Jotnar game should be balanced around that.

    will Elder trolls (mid-late game units), with their limited numbers, be competitive with mid-game units (base 11-13str) which have at least +10+14 str... and can be built in an un-limited way !...
    (and that's not even speaking of the real late game where units get +20+30 str due to tech.)
    and are earlier Giants units, before upgrade, competitive with 7/9/11 str units with +6-8 str ? (those are units that grow early game from 7-9str (very early) to 9-11str at turn 30, and at 11-13 at turn 100/150, and at 15-17str at turn 200 (early-of the mid game) Are giants un-helped by +2str techs, limited in number, competitive with that ?

    further, Jotnar pop needing 5F/pop seems a bit much... I don't know how you'll be able to sustain that (unless you mean that you need to accumulate 5*Pop before being able to grow to next size ?
     
  16. Aletr

    Aletr Chieftain

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    In cur game, part of my units turned into Undead somewhere during a war against Elohim. One dervish, one nubalah and both of the converted monks. One of the monks afterwards turned into barbarian. Elohim had only Life mana and it was early game.

    Idk any mechanics that do that, seems weird.
     
  17. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Hi, thanks for the warm welcome!

    The increased city maintenance after 10 pop is still there. It is in DLL so there is nothing I can do.

    Wow, this is new. Could you send me the save game? If I can open it, maybe I will know what was happening.
     
  18. Aletr

    Aletr Chieftain

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    Here is the save. Ive put the last 30 turns here, in case its helpful.
     

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  19. Icezera

    Icezera Chieftain

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    Is it still possible for moroi to upgrade to vampires? I know bloodpets can upgrade to vampires, but I don't remember if moroi could as well. I think in vanilla they could but I don't remember about MoM
     
  20. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Chieftain

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    - I agree with you when you ask to make pasture buildable in hellish version of plains. The fact that hell destroy most of ressources or transform them into useless ressources is a suffisant effect (I prefer a +50 % in culture production than a -x% health regeneration for the ennemy). And hell destroy desert and plain food in burning sand which is a hard effectt.

    - I disagree with what you say about Evils (and Sheaïms) and the Herbalist guild. Giving the possibilty to boost plantations, to make herbalist district, and more than all, to access to the herbs equipement, is a very important feature that any Evil who want to specialist into plantations should obtain. If Evasth don't want to allow the good features, he can forbid to Evil access to the Healer unit, to the Health building and to the Health & Happiness wonder. But at least Evil should still access to the potions.

    I know it may look strange & non elegant to have access to a guilde without all his features, but I think it's important to be pragmatic : I don't see Evils civls been specialist of plantations (as the Sheaims are, with their +0.50 mana per plantation) if they cannot access to the main guild plantations & herbs (last argument : The Warlocks love to make alchimie, potions and sacrifice black cats to the Devil right ? ^^).

    - I agree. City Maintenance should increase smothly, this hard cap has no reason to be. It's another kind of anti growing/"anti become strong" I hate.

    - If people love to use the city maintenance to slowdown the expansion reward, it's possible to dramatiquely increase the city maintenance for any occupied city, for 20 turns. It would be more logical (x3 maintenance for 20 turns because the city need occupation troops and colonial organisation to be ruled).


    - Calavente has right about the Jotnar strenght, I think. I am not sure to understand why Evasth you prefer to don't give the scaling to the Jotnar units (Aristarkh's cannon fodder brainless undead troops should not benefit from any military buff, but giants are intelligent beings). You have maybe reasons I don't see. If not, it will be good to ugrape Giants units into modernised units, but it's maybe not logical to transform a Wild Troll into a Troll Lord.

    Suggestion about Jotnar : Giving them "Firing" walls, or "Gigantic" walls

    - Firing walls : Jotnar are a people of giants. When invaders dare to come at their immense cities, they can just take rocks and throw them. When a city as a Stone Rempart building, the ennemies who are at their gate receive -10 % health point per round (with a limit of -30 %) coming from the giants to arms who non stop fire them rocks.

    - Gigantic walls idea : Jotnar with a Stone rempart are not a simple fortificied city, it's an immense fortress. High walls and cliffs as thick as mountains. Any invader need to breach hardly the fortification of a giant city with a stone wall, if they want to hope at least enter in the city. Info : If it's techniquely possible, give to the Jotnar wall the Moat faculty : it forbit any attack of the city, unless you downed the fortifications of the city to a certain percentage (zero for exemple). The problem it's it would make Jotnar city untakable by A.I because A.I rarely use siege units or fireballs. As replacement, we may just double or triple the fortification level of any jotnar city with stone wall, to make it very hard to take the city without a heavy siege work ? What do you think of this idea ?
     

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