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[Xtended] Download and Changelog

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by esvath, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    RE: Jotnar
    I am still in two minds about them. I can either make them get +2 str like other civs' units, or make them upgradeable like now. But not both, that will be too nightmarish to *ahem* balance.
    The only reason I keep their original approach (upgrading to another unit) is because I think Jotnar's unit progression is designed that way. Citizen -> Troll Hunter -> Elder Troll for their recon line. Or Citizen -> Hill Giant -> Wielder of Arms -> Titan/Berserker/Jotun for their melee.

    So, the options are:
    Option 1:
    • Make Jotnar like every other civs: get +2 str per military tech but has less units.

    Option 2:
    • Keep Jotnar like now, but balance the units' strength.
     
  2. Ombatur

    Ombatur Chieftain

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    I still disagree here, but this is because of our different playstyles. I don't play competitively so I prefer an elegant over a pragmatic solution. But since I can understand, that it's nice to be able to use herbs for potions when you have a lot of them, I proposed to give access to potion in other ways than Herbalist guild, for example through religion.

    I'm in favor of option two, because it's the more unique mechanic. However, I think it will make it more difficult to balance, because their unit strength will change more abruptly than by increasing the strength with researched military tech.
     
  3. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Chieftain

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    Option 2 yes. It's interesting to not always been in the Rooster mechanic. Aristarkh will not have Rooster too, as Scions maybe, and they have already some specials units, it would be sad to don't use them.
     
  4. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Disagree, giving the opportunity to make such science powerhouses would make this top priority for most of my games. With Ranger Guild you get + happyness from animals +2 food per farm with harvesting. Together with Aristokratie +3 happines from palace + 1 food + 2 commerce from farms. Add 1 happienes from religion and a few happiness and health buildings, spam farms and there you go, you can easily have a 30- 40 city in early midgame if you dont care for unhappiness. Combine with scientific trait too build science buildings without ressources to get real OP. Not to mention sacrifice the weak in late midgame too make real big unhappy citys.

    Agree, spamming Plantations without adopting Healers Guild makes no sense. Evil healer who sells his service for money but does some vile experiments in his celler, why not? Talking about asymetrical balance there is no need to forbid ab guild to evil players just because one is forbidden for goods.
     
  5. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Touché.
    Yet, it is still asymmetrical for Neutrals, who can have both Benevolence and Slavery :p I really want to make Slavery and Benevolence block each other, unfortunately I could not do that due to the nature of the pop up code (bypassing anything in xml and python that I know of...).
     
  6. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Just make Benevolence require alignment good. Good can't choose Slavery Guild and so cannot adot the Slavery civic...
     
  7. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Grigori objects this notion :D

    RE: Healer's Circles
    In my interpretation, Healer's Circle represents the availability of public healing and sanitation. For evil leaders, maybe I'll drop something for the Ashen Veil or Esus.
     
  8. Ogi123

    Ogi123 The End is the Beginning is the End

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    Yes Grigori strenuously object. Perhaps some equipment/potions for veil/essus utilizing those herbs?

    Small bug: Dural veil student is 4/2 instead of 4 as all other students.

    About Jotnar: balancing non rooster units is tricky, they have very large spikes of power instead slow curve of rooster units.
     
  9. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Ok, i see. Benevolence has to be open for neutrals. So the Slavery AND Benevolence problem persits.

    Lets interpret Healers Circle as availability of "public healing and sanitation" for good and neutrals, and "paid healing and sanitation" for evils. All the herb Stuff is as suitable for evils and goods alike. Don't just look at the chotic evil, also look at the lawful evil. Why shouldn't they have sanitation and healing?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
  10. Icezera

    Icezera Chieftain

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    Hmmm. Been playing a couple Calabim games and I feel that Morois need to be able to upgrade to vampires again. For a civ so heavily based around upgrading and leveling their base units, the fact that all those levels and xp goes to waste once you hit vampire tech seems to be a design problem. And it's not like they can go any other route. Calabim go all in on this strategy because they have no archery units and are forced to go into slavery for mercenaries which does 'wonders' for your economy during the transition.
     
  11. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Moroi can still have Vampirism promotion, turned by a Vampire.

    Or do you mean for Moroi to be able to upgrade to true Vampire?
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    it seems to me that you are talking about a science heavy gameplay, in a grassland start, where you use your capital as a science city.: this is not the majority of the games. and it doesn't work with the majority of the civs.

    hunter guild : why would it be necessary to start with that every game (opportunity cost) ? you took the science city in the capital (opportunity cost)
    for other cities, you have 1 less from palace, and 3 less from aristo (and no Great library).
    normally you don't have so many guilds mid game (2 ? 3 ?)
    so to get more happies in science city you will need healers / or priests...
    but that means that you forgoe arcane guild and craftsman and merchant guild, and slavery and Esus (again opportunity costs)

    and then, you'll need to have enough food intake : will the city without grasslands/wetlands (2/3 of the starts), be able to sustain such size ?

    So,mid-late game I can see that 20+ science city could be common if you took the opportunity choices that led to growing city sizes, and doing few other things.
    but having size 30-40 mid game ? not so easy.

    So yes, I don't disagree that it's doable... but I don't think that most games CAN even do it, and in those that would be able to do it, I don't think the opportunity cost make it such that its a generic way of playing.

    And if some civs, in some situation can do this... why not.
    Other game plays, with different choices can lead you to have endgame GUILD-techs and guild-revealed civ-specific units, Or Endgame summons/spells, at the same time, and be competitive.

    (maybe we don't define mid-game in the same way... for me, mid game is about turn 200 in normal speed.
    late game is turn 300-400 (out of a max of 600): even without a 600+science output city, at that time I often have at least 1 tier IV unit, and mages, and those units are decently promoted, and I only need to mop-up the world. ; if for you mid-game is turn 300-400... then I agree, you can get this 1000+ city mid game...
    but by your mid-game I would have won my game.
    and I dislike to get so powerful science cities... because science for science is not useful. What you need is science for useful techs.... and what do you do with your ultra specialized city when all really useful techs have been researched ?)
    sure, you can tech to arcmages and to get all military techs...just for the +2boost but often with half of those you are already on the wining side).

    anyway I'm not sure if you remember, but dedicated science cities in Vanilla FFH could also get 600-1000 science end game, if grown properly... and the tech cost were much lower.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  13. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    As for Herbalism and Ashen Veil.

    If starting Good/Neutral all it takes is research 1st Herbalism tech, then switch to Ashen Veil.

    Yesterday I put it to the test. Scions/Korinna as Leader (not agnostic/fallow/Neutral). Beeline to Herbalism, then Ancient Chants (Ashen Veil).
    Worked amazing. As fallow she did not care for Hell Terrain/no food, nor Armageddon Count really (side-note: Bubous is really weak in a current state).

    Possible bug: Being Evil does not prevent further Herbalism techs form being discovered (even though that's stated on every single tech from the branch).
     
  14. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Yeah, guild techs and sacred knowledges use different mechanism than regular techs, making various xml and python codes not working properly.
     
  15. gbursson

    gbursson Chieftain

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    That might actually make sense in a way. Once Herbalism is discovered (the first idea) it's only natural to pursue the tech, as the basic knowledge is already there and the benefits are known.

    How about removing red warning from Herbalism/Slavery techs (cannot be researched by an Evil/Good leader) except the first one?
     
  16. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Re Science:

    Sure, enough fresh water tiles + 2 Food resources is all what is nedeed (remember: Farms +3 food (from civics), maby +1 from well), whitch is pretty commen.

    We do.

    Disagree, science gives GP, aditioanal Guilds, Mages + Archmages, +2 from many military Techs. Thats very useful!

    Disagree, most CAN (see above). I would start nearly every game with science city in my capital to get this boon.

    But enough of that for me, my opinion here is clear.
     
  17. Icezera

    Icezera Chieftain

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    @esvath

    NVM. It was a glitch that was making the existing moroi so weak in my save. I was messing around with the worldbuilder and unit editor and somehow all my moroi weren't getting more +2 from tech upgrades which was why I thought they needed a buff. Now that I 'fixed' it by making new moroi, the calabim seem fine.
     
  18. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I remember someone posted about summons not gaining xp from buildings/GEs.

    So, what if Summoner trait gives 25% discount on summon cost (atm is 33%) and +30xp? That way, Summoners can equip summons right away.

    Also, Sheaim Planar Gate creature will get extra +30 xp as well from the trait (on top of their xp from AC).
     
  19. Jojo_Fr

    Jojo_Fr Chieftain

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    I agree. The Summoner trait really need a nice boost, and the XP boost is the best idea.

    Agree with the othe idea about planar gate. Sheaïms will have a freaking military power advance now, to compensate their relative weakness in economy, and production.
     
  20. Psychodad

    Psychodad Chieftain

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    Artisan Guild

    Before you take the Guild, you don't really know if its useful, because you cant see the ressources you get access to before taking it. Thats bothering me and i sometimes use save scumming to take another guild if nothing useful is in my borders.

    I would like to SEE the ressources before taking the guild. Would like to hear some other opinions on that.
     

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