[Xtended] New Civs (re)design

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by esvath, Oct 9, 2016.

  1. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    92
    Hello guys, sorry I haven't written so long. I've been quite busy most of the last few months, but last week I had a bit time to come back here and try to work on the Austrin a bit. I've done a few changes to them, I'd be happy if anyone still wanted to try them out. So without further ado, here are the changes:

    general:
    -Unique Improvements and autogenerating improvements give significant extra payoff
    -free trading on almost all terrain(which means you can't build roads, at all)
    -mobility now for melee, archers, disciples and adepts, too, to make up for the loss of roads
    (For the record, I'm in favor of actually taking away trading past the desert for the malakim.
    free trading everywhere fits the austrin much better lore-wise than the malakim imo. And malakim is pretty op anyway :p)

    I want the Austrin to explore the map and settle exen at far-away spots because this is what lore obviously intends them to do. However, there is a problems with this:
    Austrin actually needs an incentive to settle at specific, far-away spots. Big payoffs by unique/autogenerating improvements and "free" trading with the old cities does exactly this. You'll want to search on the map for good spots and settle right there, without having to worry about how to connect it to your old cities.

    Mobility is there to make up for the lack of roads. However, you'll still be slower than with
    roads inside your territory, so watch out!


    Austrin-specific buildings:
    -winter palace and summer palace give +2 pop
    -hunting grounds --> venison market gives gold for deer
    -austrin aerial stable 2 techs earlier than normal aerial stable
    -exotic market: state wonder that gives significant extra gold for uncommon/hard-to-obtain ressources
    -noble district --> entertainment district gives extra culture for certain ressources
    -sage district --> explorer district gives extra science for wine
    -merchant district --> trading goods district gives extra gold for certain ressources
    -food caravan now -6 food, gives a trade route instead of the fixed +gold

    Winter and Summer Palace are supposed to allow big cities. Just reduced maintenance is pretty
    weak for Austrin, and even now with +2 pop I'm not sure they're really worth it. Extra gold/culture/science for various ressources is supposed to incentive the Austrin to go settle at good ressource spots and/or trade ressources with other players. It also gives Austrin some way to scale better into the mid and lategame, because otherwise so small cities become quite weak later on. However, simply giving them more +pop buildings would destroy the flavor so I don't think that would be good. Earlier aerial stable fits the lore very well, and yet again makes settling all over the map easier.
    The food caravan was a great idea, but -10 food imo was a bit excessive. The cities that can most afford it usually have modifiers to almost double it, so you were looking at -20 food for ~8 gold. -6 food seemed more apropriate to me. Trade routes synergize well with Deirdra.


    Deirdra:
    Traits:
    Trader
    Cartographer

    -Cartographer now transforms lairs into fortified lairs after exploration, which generate gold/hammer
    -Cartographer doesn't give barter anymore ( because it would be too much, and it was bugged anyway)

    Cartographer was a bit bland. Being able to transform lairs into fortified makes some spots that would have been uninteresting for other civs actually decent city spots for you. At the same time, they give minor healing and a defense boost, thus serving as a "safe spot" for you in the wilderness should you conquer a lair there.

    Sorah and Ecks:
    unchanged

    Harmatt:
    Traits:
    Scientific
    Loremaster

    I honestly didn't really know what to do about Sorah and Ecks. I changed the trait of both Deirdra and S'n E around, but nothing really fitted well with Exotic, so I just reverted the changes to Esvaths last version. However, since the Joining is a bit bugged, I at least wanted to give Austrin another decent leader. Harmatt doesn't have any special mechanics, but both traits synergize well with the city-spammy nature of Austrin, and Loremaster in particalur allows you to go for a slightly more magic-based route that the Austrin are otherwise lacking. I found I never played those units that require magic tech, like the seeker, with Deirdra or S'n E, but with Harmatt you can easily go for that. Harmatt the Leader also synergizes well with Harmatt the Hero, because if you go for a magic route, you can capitalize on his Air Mana scaling.

    Some notes:
    -The extra gold/hammers etc might seem excessive at first, but at least in my last few games, I only had very few unique and/or autogenerating improvements close to my starts, so unless you actively search for them, it's not that big of an advantage, same goes for the exotic market
    -the guilds increasingly seem imbalanced to me. I almost always end up taking the ranger even if I planned for something else simply because he's so damn good. The animal buildings are also a bit too strong AND the Javelin/piercing weapons in general are ALSO a bit too strong (!4! free strike without any disadvantage).
    -the Joining is really bugged. the new civ has no palace, and the joining is gone, too, and the inner circle is not workable for the new civ for quite some time unless it generates lots of culture. It's also annoying that the new civ doesn't count as foreign for trading, it makes exotic really difficult to really "play with" instead of just "use"
    -the austrin civ still seems a bit weak compared to my other "go-to" civs, the faeries and the Malakim.

    Download:
    http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=89202674488846316057
    Just copy the Asset folder into your Master of Mana Asset folder. If you have any issues, just write me here in this thread.
     
  2. Vital Brasil

    Vital Brasil Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    Brazil
    Looks exciting !!

    Gonna give it a try :goodjob:

    Thanks for sharing it !

    Now, if you don't mind a suggestion:

    Would be possible to allow Harmatt to fly after getting the pegasus rider effect ?
    It always seemed weird to me, riding a pegasus without being able to fly.
     
  3. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    92
    Yeah, I'll do that!

    On playtesting, please watch out for the boni for the unique/autogenerating improvements and the exotic market. Everytime I read them again, I think "woah that's OP" but everytime I actually play it, it doesn't really seem that strong because you need to spread your cities out a lot to really make use of it - which is exactly what I want since this fits with Austrin Lore. So I'm a bit torn whether they need to be weaker, or stronger, or are just about right.
     
  4. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,403
    Great changes! I will check them shortly.

    If the Joining is bugged, how about just remove it altogether and change Sorah and Eck's trait into Trader/Cartographer and Deidra into Loremaster/something else? I never find SnE's traits as interesting.

    PS: about Flying: most unit with Flying will stop for many turns in Ocean because their AI considers Ocean as "safe". That's why I changed many units from having Flying to "able to move through impassable tiles".
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
  5. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    92
    Dunno, I never particularly liked removing something altogether as long as it is avoidable and isn't crash-to-the-desktop-bad. If people don't like to play S'n E, they can just not do it. Maybe somebody actually likes them.

    Edit: One thing I noticed just now: Sun/Moon Faeries get regular scaling AND +2 mana scaling. For regular tier 1 units, even if they cost hide, that's a bit strong. Other units have either or scaling, and if they have both, they only get +1 mana scaling, with mostly just Harmatt being another exception (and he's a mid-game HERO, opposed to an early-game REGULAR unit)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  6. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,403
    That was an oversight.

    Sun Faerie now 5 +1 Fire +1 Fire affinity +str from techs
    Moon Faerie now 5 +1 Cold +1 Water affinity +str from techs
    (bit weaker than similar units such as Bannor Demon Hunter who starts with 9 str)
     
  7. Sezneg

    Sezneg Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    149
    Awww, I'll miss the OP Winter units. Fitting for them to be so strong given the weakness of the court. Though I have to ADMIT that I will miss the current winter court mech. I played an EMP game without building any settlers, had the city size up to about 45, and was using esus to flip enemy cities, so it was really working out well.
     
  8. Vital Brasil

    Vital Brasil Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    Brazil
    On my playtest i liked the boni for unique/autogenerating improvements. They are not OP at all, since Austrin cities are small and tend to be weak. After having a decent number of cities, in mid/late game, it helps a lot your economy (score) to keep up with other civilizations.

    About exotic marker, i think its a bit OP. Actually, getting gold as Austrin is so easy that the OPness of the exotic market is almost indistinguishable. You will be swimming on gold anyway...

    Also, i noticed austrin units begin with mobility II, is this intended or they were supposed to start with mobility I ?

    Now, regarding Sorah and Ecks trait, would it be possible to make it work similarly to Mercurian's Gate ?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  9. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,403
    @Linvega I have downloaded your mod and it's fantastic! If you are OK, I will include some parts of your mod to Xtended.

    What is the bug with Cartographer trait giving Barter?

    What if instead of getting gold, the Exotic Market gives commerce? That way, player can use the commerce for gold/science/culture by adjusting the sliders.
     
  10. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    92
    No problem.

    If you don't build your first city immediately and take ranger's guild, you don't get a ranger. Which is the main reason to take the ranger's guild early.

    That's possible? I thought you only can get gold/culture/science/faith etc. from the "per ressource" bonus. So at least I'm definitely in favor of doing that!
     
  11. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,403
    Thanks!

    Ah, I see. Techs which give free unit put the unit in your capital city.

    Yes, it is possible. Just use the following code:

    <BonusYieldType>YIELD_COMMERCE</BonusYieldType>
    <iInitialValue>200</iInitialValue>
    <iPerBonusValue>50</iPerBonusValue>
     
  12. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    92
    Cool! I reduced the exotic market to an initial value of 3 now, so it's slightly weaker, but you get commerce now. And I added Silk to it, since it requires harvesting and is reasonably uncommon.

    I also gave -1 combat strength + 1 Air Mana affinity + 1 First Strike to the Seeker. I think this makes going for a semi-magic(not fully magic, but going for both magic and mundane combat techs) route now really viable because Seekers can be rushed out reasonably fast, and Windswords are really strong even pretty long into the game. And Harmatt is just a boss with multiple Air Mana.

    I'm also thinking about buffing Loremaster a bit to bring it in line with other similar traits(maybe just adding a few buildings that can be build without paying ressources). Or is it possible to make Loremaster give some mana per city?

    Thank you for the feedback! As I already wrote, I made the exotic market slightly weaker, but it gives commerce now, so it should be more interesting even if you swim in money.
    Yeah I changed it to mobility 2. Mobility 1 is reasonably hard to get, so I think it's fine allowing Austrin to be the only civ that can combine the two (Mobility 2 is otherwise only for animals).
     
  13. Vital Brasil

    Vital Brasil Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    Brazil
    Nahh ! Its me who should thank you for sharing with us your ideas and work !

    Making Exotic Market gives commerce instead of gold just fix it perfectly. I mean, Austrin does not need another building to give them gold, so this building was kinda boring. But making it gives commerce instead is great, because it allows you to choose how those wealth will be distributed through the slider.
     
  14. Linvega

    Linvega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Messages:
    92
    One question: What do you think about other buildings that give other stuff per ressource? Like a mid/lategame building that gives some hammers. Because otherwise certain lategame buildings are kind of impossible to build in a reasonable time.
    On the other hand, this is mostly balanced by just having a lot of cities with the reduced maintenance, and a civ doesn't need to be good at everything.

    Also, the Winter and Summer Palace still feel kind of weak to me compared to how costly they are and how strong they are for other civs. But I don't want to simply raise the +pop.

    Edit: And in the last game, griffons and pegasi just staying around indefinitely on water tiles annoyed me to no end. I could build a single! aerial stable.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  15. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    747
    right now this game favors many small cities strategy, due to some traits and + military support buildings per city, city size doe not matter. The most common resource and probably the least used - except for some civilizations of course: leather - defensive equipement, BUT garrnisoned units cannot use equipement - eg units designed for defence cannot use defensive items.
     
  16. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,864
    Location:
    France
    It is really amusing, because at the beginning of this thread I was arguing the exact opposit : being limited to small cities is damaging.

    I would be interested to have more detail in your experience.
    in mine, I need big cities to output enough science/spell research/faith... and to build units quickly enough.
    I also like to have big cities for culture and gold.

    culture might be generated by a bard/gladiator ; and gold.... you need much gold only if you have big cities
    the only thing that the number of cities imports is for generating noble districts and generating military support.

    anyway, it depends what you call big or small....
     
  17. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    747
    some traits offer bonuses per city and developement of cities takes here time and remarkable amount of recources and money. Also territory grab with smaller cities is faster. For endgame - bigger cities offer better everything, but at the same time - endgame units are expensive and probably the most important thing ( that 30 - 40 xp do not kill anything remarkable - inexperienced. No XP from barbs is IMO the biggest drawback of barbarian trait.

    Infact, at the endgame I have reached only with ao si and jotnar - all big city civs ( as you metntioned . huge science, etc, production), but my borders remained peaceful at the same time.

    small cities civs ( 4-8 pop lessay) were better at early-mid game conquests, usually capital city was the biggest and specialized for warrior production.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  18. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    747
    How to play arkistrah ? Hints ? Just under tomblords command with deathknell units to the closest neibourgh?
     
  19. scutarii

    scutarii King

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2008
    Messages:
    747
    I'd change jotnar's favourite improvement a little - " jotnar pasture" + 1 food ( in addition), or changes pastures 1 hammer to 1 food. Due to understadable "gigantic" food consuption, jotnar cities have huge disadvantage at city growth. You really need grassland food resource rich area, at plains with some pastures - youre stuck at 2 or 3 pop. In short, jotnar's favourite improvment at the plains is simply not enough, although lorewise giants are cattle herders.

    So far - when I can build farms or pastures, farms are simply better. For "motvation" - as previusly said - 1+ food from pastures but -1 food from farms.

    An idea : mammoth rider ! ( for jotnar)

    cyclop and troll elder same dmg but elder later and too small stat difference
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017

Share This Page