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Yemen war

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by innonimatu, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    On the good news side, the american establishment seems to be turning against the war on Yemen.

    Given Saudi Arabia's dependence on US protection and cooperation for that war, perhaps they'll be forced to give up?

    It's a hedged piece, pointing out that (as in all wars) both sides can be ruthless. But it's not one-sided, for a change. And publicizes both the suffering caused by this war, and the absurdity of waging it against people who were threatening no one.
    Is this becoming a public issue? Or still mostly under the radar?
     
  2. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Chieftain

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    The Khashoggi incident opens the Saudis up to criticism more than usual. But I still don't see the US withdrawing support. The Turks are periodically leaking stuff about Khashoggi's murder, so if MBS actually goes down we could see a policy change from the Saudis themselves.
     
  3. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    It's all talk from the Secretary of State. We've been supporting this war for years now, no reason to think we'll stop just because some journalist got himself brutally murdered.

    And there's no "maybe" about it. Without US logistical support the Saudis wouldn't be able to wage their campaign; the US could stop this any time it chooses. In fact Pompeo recently had an opportunity to do so but chose to certify to Congress that the Gulf state coalition is taking adequate care to avoid civilian casualties, so that the support can legally continue.
     
  4. Oerdin

    Oerdin Chieftain

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    • Racism will never be tolerated at CFC.
    I am cool with letting Arabs kill each other like the barbarians they are. It is just nature taking its course as far as I am concerned.

    Moderator Action: As far as CFC is concerned, this infraction is nature taking its course. ~ Arakhor
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
  5. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    I've been following it for a while. By the scale of combat and the fact that it's going on for years, I think the civilian casualties may be well beyond 100,000 already.
     
  6. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    This is a classic case of small country vs. large country power dynamics. Yemen in and of itself is no threat to Saudi-Arabia, but allied with Iran, it very well could be. Saudis used to have extensive buffer zones against Iran, with the gulf countries being more or less on their side, and they used to have Saddam's Iraq blocking Iran in the north. Now that Iraq is no longer keeping Iran in check, Iran is growing in influence, and the Saudis are very much worried by this. Iran has a large army, but not a lot of money. Saudi-Arabia has a lot of money, but they don't really have an army. In fact, Saudi-Arabia's security is guaranteed by the US, and it's possible that the US might pull support from the Saudis, especially now that the US is energy independent (I don't think it's going to happen, but it's possible, and I imagine that the Saudis are at least a little worried). I can see why Saudi-Arabia would want to fight for Yemen.

    As for the famine in Yemen, well, given the way Yemen has been (mis)managed, Yemen was bound to see a massive famine without international food aid. For context, in 1950, Yemen used to have 4 million people. Today, they have 28 million people (projected to grow to 60 million in 2050). While all of this massive population growth is going on, Yemen is one of the driest countries in the world.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen#Water_supply_and_sanitation
    While all of this is going on (17 million people are starving, and the country is running out of water), huge amount of water is being used to grow khat, a drug that feeds no-one.

    So yeah, explosive population growth and gross mismanagement have created the circumstances for a massive famine. But what's worse, Yemen isn't the only country that is in such a situation. The population growth in Africa is so massive that I fear that not even Western food-aid will be able to save them from the massive famines that are bound to happen in the 21st century. Then again I guess that's another topic, and we do not need to go into that here, all I'm saying is that Yemen might not be the only country that will see massive famines this century
     
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  7. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Chieftain

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    Time for Atlantropa 2.0.
     
  8. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    But with the Chinese in charge instead of the Europeans
     
  9. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Fresh water is a limited resource, unless there is cheap green energy to use ocean water in desalination plants, needing huge amounts of capital.
    Without that capital, which will flow first to global business and a little to the Climate actions of developed countries, Yemen will be in the classic Malthusian trap, every day deeper from pop growth and temperature increase.
    What I think the Sauds are doing is besides the Iraninan issue, besides training an army military tradition, is a pre-emptive strike on the Climate refugee issue at the horizon.
     
  10. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    That would be ironic because the saudis themselves are likely to suffer the same problems. I've been looking at satellite photos of the peninsula, it's barren with just some very few oasis and those seem to be in the process of getting built over...

    While the yemenis may have allowed serious problems to develop and the future was not looking good, the present situation of famine is one created by the ongoing war. Overpopulation cannot be invoked as an excuse to go around bombing other countries - that is barbaric! Close your borders if you want, hell put in minefields for all I care. But don't go into another country murder people because of "overpopulation".
     
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  11. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    The Saudis have the money to get desalisation plants supplying water as much as they want. Even if fossil would not be used, there is enough money for solar.
    Big buildings barring the dry hot air and being like mondern steel-concrete-glass artificial oases. More like Martian bases. Perhaps even multilayered vegetable/fruit greenhouses with leds and full recycled systems.

    Yemen has a small area with some rainfall and fertile soil. But for how many people ? Perhaps that 4 million of 1950 ?
    And if Yemenites start walking as climate refugees...... where can they go ? Their only power is their masses of martyrs.
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    These are all pipe dreams. That kind of agriculture is very expensive. Saudi Arabia does not have the money, and I am guessing it will not have the political stability, to do it.
     
  13. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Saudis live currently in a not sustainable luxuruous pipe dream.
    No doubt that will shrink.
    If they act addicted and all unwisely it could implode in some decades from now.
    But I do guess that they will find a reduced solution for a substantial few.
     
  14. Hehehe

    Hehehe Chieftain

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    Hrothbern and Innonimatu? This thread has turned into the bear wars
    Clean energy magic would have been nice, and perhaps the Yemenis could have invested some of their fossil fuel revenues into desalination (AFAIK they imported food). Oh well, could have, should have, would have. But there were also a few policy choices they could have done better. Like use water to farm food instead of drugs. Maybe they could have instituted a one child policy.

    Also, the Yemen situation is going to get worse as Yemen runs out of water. This is going to happen even if the war were to end. Maybe international aid can sustain them, but I don't know what kind of logistics it would require to send water for 10-20 million people. Last, but not least, I'd like to remind everyone that many African countries are headed for a situation kind of like in Yemen, except the scale could be so massive that no amount of international aid can solve it.
    So I take it you're suggesting that Saudis aren't driven by fear of Iran, but by some kind of animosity against Yemenis? They want to kill Yemenis before Yemeni refugees migrate to Saudi-Arabia? I'm not sure if that theory makes any sense. If the Saudis want Yemenis dead, all they have to do is guard their borders and wait. Bombing Yemen for this reason would be a pointless PR nightmare.
     
  15. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald nIGHTMARE

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    what the hell has this to do with anything
     
  16. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Chieftain

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    The US is no longer going to re-fuel aircraft involved in the slaughter in Yemen.

    Source.

     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    Holy crap, the Trump administration did something good?

    edit: upon closer inspection, it isn't that good.
     
  18. Dekker

    Dekker Chieftain

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    Would be nice if Canada stopped selling them arms and blaming the previous government for it while saying they can't break the deal because 'our word has to mean something.' While our word for 'standing up for human rights' doesn't I suppose since billions of dollars aren't on the line. Oh and of course the other worry is not putting Canadians on the hook for billions of dollars even to stand up for something and not directly contribute to that cluster**()#, though we will put them on the hook for it by forgiving the billions plus bailout loans for the auto sector. Nice priorities Trudeau, we can defend human rights on twitter but not in action.
     
  19. HoloDoc

    HoloDoc Chieftain

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    Yeah, I should probably have done a TLDR. They're no longer refuelling planes because even Republican Congressmen are turning against that, but they are indicating a plan to Vietnamise (Yemenise?) the war by arming and training pro-Saudi paramilitary death squads legitimate Yemeni Govt soldiers o slaughter civilians instead.
     

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