You CAN beat Deity but do YOU enjoy it?

[danaphanous]

Question: can you beat Deity level and do you actually play it as your default level? I play immortal as my default even though I can beat Deity because I like casual games, but lately I've been having trouble being engaged by immortal and it's become extremely easy to beat. I've heard this means usually that it's time to play solely on Deity--but I have reservations. Mainly, I'm afraid I won't be able to experiment as much and my games will feel repetitive since I'll be forced to play more optimally.

I put this game on hold for about 1.5 years while I did other things, but recently returned again. I remembered immortal as challenging with some random elements and excitement but I don't know if a recent patch has hurt the AI or what because it feels easier than ever. Despite not having played in a year my past 4 games have been solid wins with massive tech and culture leads. One immortal game I was literally 2 ages ahead of every AI with an awful start and suboptimal play for a science win.

I feel like I'm not really laying long-term or optimal plans and have just been trying random experiments with policies and empire styles. I only decide to win when it gets close to the end of the game and focus on just doing what feels fun and good for the empire as the ages progress. I've also been not bribing the AI to fight each other so they have more of a chance but it doesn't matter.

I remember Deity as being a bit tedious and full of constant warfare and backstabs so a little less fun for experiments and roleplaying. So I've been hesitant to make it my default level as I like casual games where I can just do what I want. But I'm starting to wonder if I need to play Deity to have a challenge again. How much harder do you guys that regularly play the level find it? Do you think I can play as I've been playing with weird experiments and still win or will it make my games linear and repetitive as I fear? Make it so I am forced to play a little more optimally and reutilize the same strategies.

Regardless I'm gonna up it to Deity on my next game. Only 4 games in after my 1.5 year break and it's already clear that the immortal AI have no chance of keeping up with my playstyle with any start, civ, or strategy I try. Maybe the Deity AI will give me a run for my money with early rushes and better fighting? Is there anyone who plays Deity as I play immortal and can vouch that it is fun and not just tedious? I remember Deity as the game where the AI has such ridiculous discounts every hex in their territory was solid military and everyone was fighting and denouncing all game. It was a bit novel but not nearly as fun as the AI seemed so angry and irrational. But maybe I just had a bad game?

 

[Wild_Woojsha]

Question: can you beat Deity level and do you actually play it as your default level? I play immortal as my default even though I can beat Deity because I like casual games, but lately I've been having trouble being engaged by immortal and it's become extremely easy to beat. I've heard this means usually that it's time to play solely on Deity--but I have reservations. Mainly, I'm afraid I won't be able to experiment as much and my games will feel repetitive since I'll be forced to play more optimally.

I put this game on hold for about 1.5 years while I did other things, but recently returned again. I remembered immortal as challenging with some random elements and excitement but I don't know if a recent patch has hurt the AI or what because it feels easier than ever. Despite not having played in a year my past 4 games have been solid wins with massive tech and culture leads. One immortal game I was literally 2 ages ahead of every AI with an awful start and suboptimal play for a science win.

I feel like I'm not really laying long-term or optimal plans and have just been trying random experiments with policies and empire styles. I only decide to win when it gets close to the end of the game and focus on just doing what feels fun and good for the empire as the ages progress. I've also been not bribing the AI to fight each other so they have more of a chance but it doesn't matter.

I remember Deity as being a bit tedious and full of constant warfare and backstabs so a little less fun for experiments and roleplaying. So I've been hesitant to make it my default level as I like casual games where I can just do what I want. But I'm starting to wonder if I need to play Deity to have a challenge again. How much harder do you guys that regularly play the level find it? Do you think I can play as I've been playing with weird experiments and still win or will it make my games linear and repetitive as I fear? Make it so I am forced to play a little more optimally and reutilize the same strategies.

Regardless I'm gonna up it to Deity on my next game. Only 4 games in after my 1.5 year break and it's already clear that the immortal AI have no chance of keeping up with my playstyle with any start, civ, or strategy I try. Maybe the Deity AI will give me a run for my money with early rushes and better fighting? Is there anyone who plays Deity as I play immortal and can vouch that it is fun and not just tedious? I remember Deity as the game where the AI has such ridiculous discounts every hex in their territory was solid military and everyone was fighting and denouncing all game. It was a bit novel but not nearly as fun as the AI seemed so angry and irrational. But maybe I just had a bad game?

I think CIV on any level can get tedious, I know I've abandoned far more games out of tediousness than anything else and I only play CFC-posted maps. I never roll my own. I don't even have enough time to play all of the CFC-posted maps!

Anyways, I enjoy Deity more because the games go faster. If you plant a city next to a friendly neighbor, they will send caravans or cargoes to you immediately and your science will skyrocket since they start out with so many techs. They do get angry and irrational, but I find that more fun. I've only won via science and diplomacy on Deity so far, culture and domination have eluded me, so my opinion should be taken with lots of salt, but as a Deity underdog its definitely still my favorite setting. The game just feels much more real for some reason that I really don't know how to explain.

 

[docbud]

I've played a few games on Diety (those challenge games--though I don't participate in them, but just play the game). I think I've one won and got my butt kicked in all the rest.

I'm mainly king/emperor though I have won on Immortal. But I'd rather play at emperor level just because I can relax and enjoy the game. Playing Immortal or Diety is just too much seriousness.

It's like when I played in a dart league. The levels were A-H (A being the highest and H being the lowest). I played in D league--and I enjoyed it. The two teams would play, drink beer, played the juke box, and basically have a good time. Well, we also had an A team that our bar sponsored and they were way too serious, and actually drank water during their matches and wanted complete silence.

I'm not saying that Deity players are like that, nor that folks who play on king/emperor are drunks. I'm just saying that folks on lower levels have more leeway and can have fun. Playing Deity means you can't mess around. Every turn counts and you can't really get distracted.

Gosh--I hope I worded that right. I think I was reprimanded by a mod a while back for using that scenario and not wording it properly or something. Somehow it was found to be insulting.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I dont really start games myself.

I do like to do everything as well as i can, i make excel sheets etc to build my strategy and make sure everything is as optimal as i can. I triple check everything before i click the end turn button. I force myself to stop every so many turns to have a look at the big picture and the long term planning extensively.

So yes, i do like playing at the highest difficulty levels.

The problem is however, that playing like this goes pretty slow. On randomly generated maps you often run into serious problems that make the game effectively unwinnable on deity (mostly due to having no space to expand, 1 AI alone on a landmass so it will run away like crazy etc etc). I hate finding that out after 5 hours of play and then having to start all over. Thats why i play only the GOTM games.

Another problem i have with creating my own games is that i restart them till i have an acceptable starting position, but once you have tasted the salt, you start to get picky and then when is it good enough. I may for example restart and then on the 6th try get 2 salt tile, but theres only 1-2 hills in my extended radius so i think "meh, thats not good enough, not enough production". Then i proceed restarting but it takes half an hour before i even get anything as good as the one i just didnt take. That makes me leave the game before i even started. I can solve that then by making and saving 10 starts for example and choosing 1 of those. But still that takes a bunch of time and still you often find that it is an unwinnable map hours later.

I think the game should be designed to bring more balance in its map creation so that every starting position is more or less equal in quality. It is the opposite right now, the difference between salt and jungle-calendar resources is just silly. The difference between a good map (both start and world geography) and a bad start (not even the very most terrible that you would always restart) is more than a difficulty level. I dont think it should be.

 

[danaphanous]

Alright, well I'll still try it. Should be interesting having not played the level in a while--I was more curious if the play has changed any in the past 1.5 years worth of patches. I noticed the AI playing slightly better at war when coast isn't involved (with water they still embark and die in hordes). Hopefully they make it difficult for me though!

I've heard from many talented players that you can't mess around much like I do EVERY game on immortal but surely I won't need to play the exact same way every game? Plus it sounds like Deity will be a fun challenge at least. And I saw an Acken post beating Deity with liberty so now i feel I have to try my liberty strats on Deity just to see if it works. If I can keep a few friends the trade routes should make science more viable early game.

It's annoying to hear that some AI can run-away quite easily if you can't find them. That makes sense and may be why I hear a lot of Deity players play on pangaea. On immortal games recently I've been checking random map type so I have no forknowledge of how to play. My last game I checked random civ as well. I guess that's a bad idea on Deity? I guess I'll find out!

@Wacken: your use of spreadsheets for this game is interesting to me. Can you attach an example? I don't think I could stand to play that slow but I can see the value for trying for a record time on GOTM. Thanks for your comments/links last week showing me the challenge! It looks like fun!

 

[Captain_Wozzeck]

lately I've been having trouble being engaged by immortal and it's become extremely easy to beat.

I think this is quite a common problem. It's not hard to become tech leader in Immortal even with suboptimal play (I even had an experimental wide game where I settled 33 cities and that didn't stop me!). Even more annoying is that domination is too easy on Immortal.

So as a result I play deity 50% of the time. I'd definitely give it another go if I were you. Some Deity games are thoroughly satisfying. However, I would agree with you that some are just plain stressful. It's too easy to have your strategy ruined by Shaka or some other runaway.

So whenever I want to relax a bit I drop back to Immortal and try and set myself a challenge a little bit. For example, domination on a fractal map with choke-points, or a map with lots of mountains. Or I'll open Piety and try something new. Finally you can go for unusual strategies like a gold-first research agreement based science victory (totally inefficient, but fun!), or a Honor gold generating diplo victory.

I think a fun experience can be struck by switching between immortal and deity. I'm currently in an Immortal phase, but might go back to Deity if I want that big challenge again

 

[docbud]

...Another problem i have with creating my own games is that i restart them till i have an acceptable starting position, but once you have tasted the salt, you start to get picky and then when is it good enough....

That's my problem.

 

[danaphanous]

I can see how you would definitely get picky if you are used to racing on time. Good start can easily make a 30-turn or more difference on game-finish time. Honestly, this is why liberty-playstyle is more freeing is it relies less on your capital start being amazing and more on the average condition of the surrounding terrain in all directions which tends to be more balanced then starts do.

I usually just roll random game every time and play with my start since I don't worry as much about finish time. I think I'll probably save that for the GOTM games you linked me on.

 

[MechMedic130]

My sweet spot is Emperor, but eventually even that gets to be too easy. The problem is the difference between the early and late game is too big on most settings. On Emperor, the early game is pretty fairly balanced but by mid game it's easy to just rocket past everyone else. I was just playing an England game and I was 6 tech's ahead of the next closest civ (got a good spot with mountain for a second city, built an observatory and just flew past everyone else).

I wish they'd come up with a way to keep it more balanced throughout the entire game. Even with production bonuses and such the AI just doesn't do a great job late game. But the early game can just be painful on higher difficulties depending on who your neighbor is. I've beaten the game on every difficulty, but I guess Emperor is just where I have the most fun. To me the early game is the most fun, late game can be tedious no matter what difficulty you're on. I have a bad habit of starting a game, playing until the Modern Age then getting bored and starting over.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

. The problem is the difference between the early and late game is too big

Yup. It would be better if the deity AI didnt start with 2 settlers but was better in late game. Of course an actual better AI would be a lot better than just a bigger bonus.

Some important aspects of the AI are really super easy to improve. The very fist thing i would do that totally make sense is to make the AIs strongly work together against the one who is in the lead, both if that is the player or another AI. Thats also what happens in any free for all game with human players, it can be programmed in minutes and it helps solve both the problem of the game becoming super easy in mid-game and of the runaway AI on another continent (it might still runaway early game, but then the other AIs will help you kick its ass)

This is also something that can very much be depending on the difficulty level. On the low difficulties it can remain as it is, on say emperor it would start to work together for example when your score is 50% higher than the second. 30% on immortal, 10% on deity, just a bit initially, more and more as the difference rises. And when you are about to get a victory, they should be doing absolutely everything they can to stop you. You could have nice end games where you build your space parts in your core towns while your border towns are scrambling to hopefully hold of the AI onslaught long enough.

Besides that, theres of course much more that needs improvement. Improving the AI overal sure isnt the easiest task, to make an AI beat humans without advantages/cheating is without a doubt more difficult than it is for chess or go. But its so far from that, I feel like its the thing lowest on the list priorities for the developers. How can you make an AI that keeps falling for a worker lure trap. (and not fix that in a patch during the years after release)

 

[killmeplease]

the game lacks rubber bands, if you have got ahead nothing can stop you
so the game is typically played as a pursuit, once you ran down a leader the game is won (not when a VC is met)
higher difficulty pushes this moment further
for me i prefer not to use exploits than to rise difficulty level (i usually play emperor and sometimes immortal)
so no reroll, no worker steal, no horse trading, no rival prophets trapping etc.
the "golden rule" is dont do what AIs can certainly not.
e.g. move and shoot belongs here as i have never saw an AI doing that..

 

[docbud]

I try not to reroll, but sometimes I just have to. I'm not going to play as the Aztecs in the middle of the desert, or as Arabia in the middle of the jungle.

 

[Nick31]

I feel like I say this in every thread these days, but for me Immortal-level with Mods is the most fun. Smart AI mod is the real deal in beefing up AI play. I just won a T288 Science victory as Carthage, and were it not for all the GS I could Pop, I would have lost. A Large Map, Large Continents Catherine was rocking 2400 Science per turn on 288, with 2 parts finished. Pretty decent.

Like many, I don't like the default Diety settings. Too unbalanced. I have had a few Diety wins that I truly enjoyed, but many which I did not.

I truly can't believe that Firaxis designed Immortal and Diety AI with such inferior skill. The smart AI mod is pretty straight-forward, but out of all the things it does, merely re-designing 3 key traits produces a much more competitive AI:

1) Move-and-shoot range enabled, 2) Policy finishing (in this game Catherine went Full Liberty into Full Piety, Rationalism-2, Full Autocracy.... not 'human' but much, much better than normal AI), and 3) Quick to at least go Rationalism in some form (something default AI criminally avoids like the plague).

I'm no game designer, but how on earth did BNW not have a Firaxis-issued AI patch that enabled stronger AI play on Emperor, Immortal, and Diety settings? I suppose they leave it for the Mod community. By the way, Diety with a move-and-shoot AI is truly no joke. Those are ferocious carpets of doom.

Anyway, yes I prefer an Immortal game with some flexibility to a Diety slog, but in full disclosure, I'm a mediocre Diety player. So in the top 1%, but then in the bottom half .

 

[MightySpice]

One way to keep things interesting is to randomize the leader you play with. Just accept the starting position you get (and don't restart untill you are happy) And enable barbarrians / goody huts.

 

[danaphanous]

One way to keep things interesting is to randomize the leader you play with. Just accept the starting position you get (and don't restart untill you are happy) And enable barbarrians / goody huts.

This is what I've been doing on the majority of my games: random maps & accept first start. It makes it so I have no advantage of knowing the terrain. They are still getting too easy on immortal though.

 

[darkskies]

Yes I seldom do Deity now, mainly because I like early wars and it often just takes to long for me to build up a decent army in time for this because of the advantages the AI have in Deity. I used to do it more. I also get annoyed when I can't even get one early wonder as happens too often on Deity but seldom on Immortal.

I also do random maps mostly. But I will reroll if I get a real crap start again mainly because I like early war.

 

[General Tso]

I normally don't try to push my mod and I'm not trying to do that here. But the current game that I'm playing on Deity level might be of interest to some people in this thread.

Up until recently I never played at Deity level because it's just seemed like to much work and not enough fun. Then I tried playing it using my Really Advanced Setup mod to improve my starting position (among other things) and I'm having a blast.

I did the following on a huge Pangaea map.

I gave myself a few extra starting units, 10,000 extra gold, plus I placed some extra resources around my starting location. Players who are already playing at Deity level could probably use less perks but the important part is that this makes war possible right from the start. More advanced players can also give the AI some perks to make the game more difficult if they want.

I then added well over a 1000 new resources that where randomly spread across the map. Mostly Wheat, Deer, Fish, Iron, Coal, Oil, Aluminum and Uranium. I also added a dozen or so of each luxury. This made a map full of rich cities and strong AI. War is a lot more fun when you have all of those nice targets!

Then I disabled nuclear war (personal preference) and enabled permanent war. The permanent war option in my mod just uses code that is already in the game (but is normally hidden) and is somewhat bugged. But I really like the way it works anyway. Basically the human player starts at war with everybody else and can never be at peace. While everybody else is at peace with everybody but the human player and never seems to go to war with anybody else.

The end result is a game full of combat action from the start. And a map that has plenty of rich prosperous cities just waiting to be captured.

In my current game. I'm currently in the modern era. I've been at war the whole time and have been having a lot of fun fighting wars on multiple fronts.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

10.000 gold meaning you can buy 6 settlers, units to defend all that terrain and the alliance of some CSes on top of that right from the bat?
Doesnt sound like the mod that makes a nice, balanced and interesting game.
Moreso reminds me of the cheat codes people used in games 2 decades ago to get unlimited stuff / immortality whatever and thus totally ruin the game.

 

[Primacide]

This is a shameless opportunity to say:

OH THANK YOU!!! For writing the really advanced setup mod. I use it nearly every time I play.

(Sorry for the thread hijack.)

 

[General Tso]

@WackenOpenAir: I just need that much gold because I'm not the best at playing the game and playing on deity is difficult for me. The gold's not mandatory - the mod allows anything from 0 to 10,000. I mostly used the gold to buy new buildings for my first 5 or so cities. That way I could concentrate on military. And since the entire world including all of the city states where at permanent war with me. I needed all the military I could get!

@Primacide: Thanks. I'm glad you like the mod.