You can capitulate your way out of War???

[feralminded]

I'm in the middle of leveraging my Calvary vs Longbows advantage in my latest Emperor game and suddenly Shaka (who I am <10 turns from completely annihilating) capitulates to his neighbor and suddenly we're at peace? WTH? Is this a bug? Now suddenly I have to have 2 wars ... which is ok because my Vassal is pretty monstrous and I have a ******ed tech lead but if this happened in an immortal game I'd be pissed because it would have wrecked me.

 

[Onionsoilder]

The person who Shaka capulated to basically said "We are going to protect Shaka in exchange for his loyalty". When this happens, you have three options:

1) Continue on the war. You will now have two(or more, depending on how many vassals the other guy has) opponents.

2) Stop the war. If the person who vassalized Shaka is to powerful, or if you don't want to bother, just take what you got and leave.

3) Vassalize Shaka yourself. Every time you capture a city, check to see if that civilization is willing to capulate. If they are willing and you don't let them capulate, chances are somebody else probably will.

 

[AfterShafter]

Oh yes, I'm familiar with this phenomenon...

I lost my only Deity game I thought I was going to win because of this. I had Bismark on the ropes, friendly with world-leader Saladin (who I think I would have beaten to space), no threat of cultural victory I couldn't handle... So Bismark capitulates to Saladin with me about 60% done my conquest. All of the sudden half of my new German cities were absolutely culture screwed, my new empire was cut into pieces, the costs were tremendous for cities which didn't produce due to culture problems, and if I'd been able to get his land, I would have had the base I needed to (I think) win the game. Saladin not only caught Bismark up for tech but actually gave him a slight military tech lead over me, but all of the sudden I had to contend with Saladin's navy and reinforcements even if I could beat the was backwards, now technologically advanced mega-unit-builder Bismark. The game died a slow death after that.

In short, I *really* hate this happening.

 

[feralminded]

Yeah I have to say I really really hate vassals. On the higher levels its almost NEVER to my advantage. This is actually the first game where I've got a useful vassal (Ethiopians who are teching like fiends and they actually have a useful army). This was ******ed. Yeah I'm in a position of power and am going to just steamroll both of them but still ... if this happened on a higher difficulty I would be completely pissed.

 

[Joshua368]

If you are fighting alongside another civilization, the victim may surrender to your ally. This will force peace as your war is over and they admitting defeat, and you'll have to turn on your ally to continue. They may capitulate to your ally if (1) he attacked first, (2) he did signifigantly more damage, or (3) you ignore their offer of capitulation long enough. To avoid it, bribe your ally to make peace.

The other option (that didn't occur here) is the victim becoming a vassal state to a neutral civilization which they are friends with. This isn't surrending, but rather running to them for help. You can't avoid this like you can with the above (unless you make sure the civ has no friends) but it does not force peace as the new master automatically declares on you.


Either way, its not really that hard to predict and work around.

I lost my only Deity game I thought I was going to win because of this. I had Bismark on the ropes, friendly with world-leader Saladin (who I think I would have beaten to space), no threat of cultural victory I couldn't handle... So Bismark capitulates to Saladin with me about 60% done my conquest. All of the sudden half of my new German cities were absolutely culture screwed, my new empire was cut into pieces, the costs were tremendous for cities which didn't produce due to culture problems, and if I'd been able to get his land, I would have had the base I needed to (I think) win the game. Saladin not only caught Bismark up for tech but actually gave him a slight military tech lead over me, but all of the sudden I had to contend with Saladin's navy and reinforcements even if I could beat the was backwards, now technologically advanced mega-unit-builder Bismark. The game died a slow death after that.

In short, I *really* hate this happening.

What exactly happened here? Were you forced into peace or war?

 

[Kip Beagle]

It's definitely annoying and it happens to me so often I've just taken for granted that it's the outcome of every war I fight. Pretty much all of my games eventually become me vs. one guy with 4 or 5 vassals.

The worst is that for some reason, the AI is less willing to capitulate to me so I never get the chance to keep vassals. It doesn't always happen, but enough to make it noticable. I don't know why it happens, but I play on modern age starts so maybe that has something to do with it?

I don't usually mind all that much that opponents get vassalized, as it just makes it more challenging for me. However, the worst is when a guy I'm beating will capitulate to an AI who isn't even on the same continent, thus becoming essentially an overseas colony to some completely foreign AI... That's just not realistic, imo. If he offered to capitulate to me first and I refused, then maybe I could see it, but to just defy me and then up and become a pet dog of someone 5,000 miles away. No.

 

[AfterShafter]

What exactly happened here? Were you forced into peace or war?

Pardon.. I went from a so-far successful war into a forced peace a a terrible time. Stuck with a bunch of land crippled by culture, the defending guy got teched up by his new master, and the prospect of new war meant I had to face a teched up Bismark and a massive Saladin. Unfortunately, I had to either give up the land I`d fought for (would result in a slow loss) or go back to war and face Bismark and Saladin (long odds).

 

[Joshua368]

Pardon.. I went from a so-far successful war into a forced peace a a terrible time. Stuck with a bunch of land crippled by culture, the defending guy got teched up by his new master, and the prospect of new war meant I had to face a teched up Bismark and a massive Saladin. Unfortunately, I had to either give up the land I`d fought for (would result in a slow loss) or go back to war and face Bismark and Saladin (long odds).

For you to be forced into peace, Saladin must've been fighting alongside you. (otherwise it would have been forced war with saladin instead) maybe you could have bribed Saladin into taking peace so you could continue your war instead of having your game destroyed?

 

[AfterShafter]

For you to be forced into peace, Saladin must've been fighting alongside you. (otherwise it would have been forced war with saladin instead) maybe you could have bribed Saladin into taking peace so you could continue your war instead of having your game destroyed?

Saladin was in the war along with me, yes - but he hadn't been for long. Resources were tight, and I ran the risk of exactly this happening by not bribing him immediately. Problem is, once Bismark capitulated, I was at peace with Saladin, my cities were screwed, and it was too late. I don't reload games either, so... I just kept running with it and found myself completely hooped.

Bismark was his bitter enemy, I was his staunch ally - but his action was crippling to me and life-saving for Bismark. I'm not a huge fan of this mechanic as it works now because it allows for scenarios like this with allies hurting allies and saving enemies - and it's not considered a backstab at all in game terms.

 

[feralminded]

I was most definitely forced into peace and I had no ally. The situation was.

I was at peace with everyone but Shaka.
I had a vassal.
I had no other allies.
I was crushing Shaka
He vassallized to Joao who I was Cautious with.
Magically the war ended ... Joao didn't DoW on me ... the war just ended.

 

[Inky]

I was most definitely forced into peace and I had no ally. The situation was.

I was at peace with everyone but Shaka.
I had a vassal.
I had no other allies.
I was crushing Shaka
He vassallized to Joao who I was Cautious with.
Magically the war ended ... Joao didn't DoW on me ... the war just ended.

What patch version? 3.17 shouldn't do this. The behavior of vassals and masters was adjusted, to stop a non-ally from grabbing your war enemy (or anyone else's) without also declaring war.

Only other thing I could think of would be an event bringing peace with Shaka, coupled with a voluntary vassalization to Joao. That would show up in the event logs.


I've still got burned badly, as my enemy suddenly becomes vassal to a powerful neighbor, and the war I was about to win turns into a major confrontation.

 

[azzaman333]

Capitulations, which can only occur between 2 civs that are presently at war, will cause a forced peace with all nations at war with the vassal civ. The vassal will also be forced to declare war against any other civs the master is at war with.

Voluntary vassalisations will result in the master declaring war against all civs currently at war with the vassal. A master will only accept the vassal if they are willing to attack the civs that the vassals are at war with, though.

 

[feralminded]

So possibly what happened here is I was at war with Shaka and winning ... but he was also at war with Joao and I didn't know it? So he capitulates to Joao and ends all current wars including mine? Am I understanding that right?

 

[azzaman333]

That sounds likely.