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You don't need military

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by metagross, Nov 1, 2014.

  1. metagross

    metagross Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    43
    So I'm playing an Apollo game with Franco-Iberia. Spamming cities, building trade routes. It's around turn100 and all my cities are focused on building Colonists/Trade Vessels. Meanwhile I'm beelining Deep Space Satellite for Contact Victory.

    Suddenly, that CEO b**** declares war after years of great relations. I'm thinking I'm screwed. I have one Marine, one level of Affinity in Harmony and she is 1 tile away from my Capitol with 3-4 Rangers, 3-4 Armors and 3-4 Soldiers (or upgraded versions, didn't really check).

    Now since I'm focusing trade routes I have many to spare so I rush-buy a Marine in the Capital and bombard one of her units, nearly killing it. She proceeds to pillage my terrain but not attacking the City itself. From then on I proceed to build/buy 2 more Marines and I clear out all her forces with the help of Bombardment. 10 turns after I wipe her initial force, she offers peace and 2200 Energy, 22EpT and some Petroleum (which came in handy for the satellite).

    From then on it's smooth sailing and I won Contact at turn 195.

    So, even on the highest difficulty, you don't have to worry about military. This game has so much potential, but for me, every game is essentially split into two parts. Turn 0 - 140 spam Trade Routes, ignoring everything else. Turn 140+ focus whatever victory condition I feel like. I usually ignore all other buildings anyway, since 80% of my research is trade routes.
     
  2. mnf

    mnf King

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2006
    Messages:
    659
    The combat AI is dumb. I was in a similar situation (but Mercury difficulty) with my two neighbors dogpiling on me because I expanded too fast.

    I had low production across the whole colony. I had no road system. I had like 500 energy because I spent them buying Trade Depots and convoys for my new cities.

    They sent waves and waves and waves...of 1-2 unit forces. All they managed to do was pillage 1 tile and I ended up just changing 2 cities to production of military units, with the rest still building up the economy.

    They don't seem to plan for invasions and they don't make use of overwhelming force. At least the latter should be programmed into the AIs, I'd think.
     
  3. Noatz

    Noatz Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    England
    Yes, the AI somehow manages to be even worse than the Civ 5 AI. IMO how the AI civs interact with you and play is the game's biggest flaw, it actually angers me a bit since it feels like they just copy pasted all their AI systems from Civ 5 and didn't bother to improve anything when AI was one of the areas from Civ 5 most in need of improvement.
     
  4. Lancor

    Lancor Prince

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    Jun 9, 2010
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    325
    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Sadly the game is not much more than a building/managment simulator at the moment.
     
  5. Autoclave

    Autoclave Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
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    185
    It's even worse, it's a trade route simulator
     
  6. m15a

    m15a Emperor

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    Jul 7, 2005
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    I just lost a city to Kozlov last night. They had like 4 marines attack it at start. I got it back within a couple turns, but obviously no military wouldn't have worked. This was a much earlier war and was also declared by ARC. The AI might not be as effective as they should be, but the no military route will definitely get you at some point.
     
  7. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

    Joined:
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    If you just put a rocket battery, defense perimeter, and ranged unit garrison in a city the AI will never be able to take it.

    For extra immunity add a few tacjets, everything only takes a few turns to build with trade routes anyway.
     
  8. ixias

    ixias Warlord

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    Dec 13, 2012
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    You may not have had an actual military, but the fact that you had energy saved up to buy units was your saving grace. Sure she may have been a bit incompetent, but without the new military units, she probably would have taken your city.

    While I think there is certainly room for improvement, they still will attack you and can take your cities. Not maintaining a military or hoarding energy to buy one is going to get you into some trouble, especially depending on your neighbors.
     
  9. Borgcube

    Borgcube Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2014
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    19
    So, uh, when? You obviously can ignore military until you absolutely have to, which is something you can't do in other Civ games.
    "Military is unimportant" doesn't mean "YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUILD MILITARY EVER NO MATTER THE DIFFICULTY OR IF YOU'RE IN A WAR". Stopping a war vs an aggressive faction just by building 2-3 units is just stupid, and certainly indicates something is wrong.
     
  10. m15a

    m15a Emperor

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    I was responding to what was said in the OP and topic.
     
  11. Vo01985

    Vo01985 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
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    211
    Location:
    Allen, TX
    You're describing pretty well how I feel about the game. All I seem to be doing at the start is spam cities and trade routes. Then after a while I figure out which VC I want and focus on that. It's just kinda boring. The potential is really there but they have to do quite a few things to reach it.
    Civ V launch I was actually fairly positive about because I hadn't played Civ since the first one, so I played a ton of that regardless of all the flaws (horseman rush, RA spam+GS spam), but with this game I don't see myself playing it a whole lot more, because that initial feeling of it being new isn't there.
    We all like to play in the most effective way, and currently that way is just spamming cities and trade routes, which I never found interesting. Which sucks, cause I have almost 1500 hours in Civ V, and I know I can fall in love with CivBE too, but not just quite yet..
     
  12. metagross

    metagross Chieftain

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    Oct 28, 2014
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    I'm trying to role-play now, having a completely randomized start and taking whatever I get. Last time I rolled Africans with their growth bonus so I turned all Trade Routes inward and focused on growth. Won T213 Transcedence (decided for Harmony early on since I had a lot of Xenomass). My capital ended up at 35, second city at 37.

    What's funny though is that there were three one-tile islands near my coast so I naturally settled those too. In the end all of the cities on these one-tile islands with at most 1 sea resource to work ended up 20+ in size. Yeah, trade routes are nuts.

    I would have really loved to be there when this game was tested. I suspect everyone was high on something awesome...
     
  13. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    Aug 27, 2014
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    If you haven't seen an early game carpet of doom in Apollo, then you haven't played enough games. Landing close to ARC or the Slavs means that if you don't build a military you will see DoW very early, with a lot of units, and without defensive structures you will lose your cities very quickly. In those cases you absolutely do need to build a military before the DoW comes (or at least some rocket batteries).
     
  14. Ryoga

    Ryoga King

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    Someone must have thought: "Why are there so few trade routes available in Civ V? There should be at least... 3 per each city!!!"


    The only change they did to trade routes that I really welcome is the fact that when you declare war to someone your trade routes with him are automatically cancelled and not destroyed.
     
  15. Cannes

    Cannes Chieftain

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    Oct 2, 2010
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    Anyone with a tiny bit of sense, have already installed a mod that heavily nerfs traderoutes. Playing the game vanilla is quite pointless.
     
  16. Question

    Question King

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    Theres really no point nerfing the trade routes, the end issue with lack of aggression is that the AI isnt using them properly and therefore cant grow at the same rate as players.

    The game is slow enough without losing the food/production from internal trade routes.
     
  17. Noatz

    Noatz Warlord

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    They absolutely need to be nerfed, because Civ derives its replayability from diversity of development paths and strategies. Currently there is only one: spam trade routes, pick your victory condition then hit end turn until the game says you won :crazyeye:.

    The AI's ineptitude is a whole different can of worms that is much harder to fix: it's a systemic problem that will probably never be fully corrected.
     
  18. s0nny80y

    s0nny80y King

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    Surplus and excess income may be a sign of sub optimal gameplay...perhaps you could have won even sooner with expensive improvements built?
     
  19. Yzman

    Yzman Deity

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    My first game I lost 2 cities to Brasilia. They actually coordinated there attacks very well. I eventually fought them back but it was clear he was going for domination victory. He had taken 2 other capitals already.
     
  20. Mysticforce

    Mysticforce Chieftain

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    Oct 30, 2014
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    The AI has major issues with attacking high STR units with lower STR units. This makes the AI terrible in the early game since no matter how many armors they have, they will never attack a city with 30+ STR with them. This means AI would send an army of 6-8 armors, a few rockets, and a few gunners to die outside your 30 STR city with its lone gunner defender.

    Later on, after the AI gets to affinity 7+ when base units become stronger, that's when it becomes adapt at taking cities.

    One of my Apollo games had me sammiched between ARC and Brasilla, they both DoW on me by turn 80, and we were in a constant state of war. I had a natural choke from ARC territory, so I was able to hold that front with 1 melee + 2 ranged. Vs Brasilla I didn't even bother building an army since he was so far away. When he finally attacked with 12 armors, 2 marines, and 4 ranged units - which would have easily swept aside my border cities, I fended him off with 2 ranged units and 1 border city, because he'd just move around the cities and never attack except with ranged units. I crushed his army after about 15 turns of this.

    80 turns later, after I've conquered most of ARC, Brasilla attacked again... this time with 20+ affinity 7 upgraded base units. This time he had no issues attacking my cities, and was able to take 2 before I shuffled enough of my army across the empire to beat him back. It took 30+ turns, probably killed 40+ units all in all.

    So, quick fix is to just take out the AI's hesitance to attack high STR targets with low STR units. If I knew how to mod that, I would >.>
     

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