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You kicked our ass the last time we declared war on you +1

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DarkSchneider, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. DarkSchneider

    DarkSchneider King

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    I think Firaxis should implement a system in which an opponent declaring War on you, only to lose and give you money for peace, should give you a positive diplomatic rating with them. I don't think a nation would really go to war with another that often only to lose each time they did. Eventually they would develop a fear of them...
     
  2. Gogf

    Gogf Indescribable

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    Positive relations don't just prevent war, they also improve trade. I'd think a Civ would start to think of you as their hated enemy if they kept failing to attack you.
     
  3. Artanis

    Artanis King

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    They kinda do develop a fear of you, in a way: the AI is less likely to attack a stronger rival, and destroying their military while taking half their cities is going to leave you significantly stronger ;)

    ...and if you don't beat them that thoroughly, the Barbary Wars serve as an adequate real-life precedent for "too-light butt-kicking = continued aggression anyways".
     
  4. Sahkuhnder

    Sahkuhnder Delusions of grandeur

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    German defeat in 1918 and the resulting Treaty of Versailles peace terms and reparations just made them resentful and damaged their relations with the Allies.

    And we all know what that lead to.
     
  5. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    the germans being crushed a second time, their country being divided and occupied for 50 years?
     
  6. Sahkuhnder

    Sahkuhnder Delusions of grandeur

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    Yes eventually, but there was the second even more brutal war with the bad feelings as from the OP.

    I think the modifier could also sometimes be:

    You kicked our ass the last time we declared war on you and now we really hate you -1.
     
  7. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    but that exists in the form of:
    -x you burned our cities down
     
  8. TrailblazingScot

    TrailblazingScot I was kittenOFchaos

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    Worked after WW1...

    No wait a minute!

    :lol:
     
  9. Sahkuhnder

    Sahkuhnder Delusions of grandeur

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    That only applies if you did raze their cities, not if you added them to your empire.

    My point is that just because one civ wins a war against another there is no set way that action should influence the future relationship between the two.
     
  10. AngryPants

    AngryPants Warlord

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    1st, wrong forum.
    2nd, I'm with Sahkuhnder. There are plenty of examples of countries reacting differently after defeat. Some seek revenge, others become friends with the nations they lost to. The current war penalties are just fine in my opinion.
     
  11. Fragment

    Fragment Chieftain

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    Diplomatic relations after WW II so absolutely don't reflect what happened.

    "+5 thousands upon thousands of our soldiers died horribly on battlefields in Europe because of you, TWO times" - USA vs. FRG, after WW II?
    "+8 you invaded us three times in the last 100 years" - France vs. FRG, same time?
    "-10 you helped us saving our country/the world from the most brutal and warmongering country in that time" - USA vs. USSR/vice versa, same time?

    More realistically, probably:

    "+8 you are the leader of our military block" - Germanies vs. their respective super power
    "+5 our leader likes your leader personally" - Germany vs. France, vice versa
    "+5 you tried your best to keep us from starving although had any reason not to" - Germany vs. USA
    "+3 you are the biggest country in our economic area" - European countries vs. Germany, a little later
    "+5 you saved us from the fascist government" - GDR vs. USSR

    To me, diplomatic mood swings appear dramatic in the real world and, more important, much shorter lasting. Compare how relationships to Iraq went to hell in a few years time or how the government of Pakistan managed to become the USAs best friend in the area.

    Modifiers?

    "+X you allegedly believe our current trend of ideology/counter-ideology"
    "-Y you control too many resources"

    ... whatever. You just can't know what will happen tomorrow on in the diplomatic area.

    Regards, from Germany, otherwise also known as "Old Europe" ;-)
     
  12. Dueck

    Dueck Walrold

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    When you conquer them to bits and then gift them their cities back, then maybe they'll be friendly. When you just took a bite out of their nation and are now holding a million of their people in your country, not so much.
     
  13. katank

    katank Prince

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    I don't see people loving you for killing them. Reducing likelihood of war declaration, yes.

    Perhaps you should be able to offer reconstruction of their smashed nation and eventually become friends later.

    As of right now, a few AIs will declare on you even while pleased and grudges are forever so kill them ASAP once you warred on them. Heck, kill them all as soon as you can afford to.
     
  14. Sahkuhnder

    Sahkuhnder Delusions of grandeur

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    Interesting idea. Maybe be offered the chance to 'buy' a +1, +2 or +3 modifier by spending gold on reconstruction of your ex-enemy?

    Would they then receive specific new buildings or tile improvements paid for with your money? The details would take some work.
     
  15. DarkSchneider

    DarkSchneider King

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    Heh, heh, I just meant that if one nation keep sending troops, and they all died each time, that after some point they would stop declaring war on you. The computer AI is just not that good at waging war, and in a defensive battle, you often need twice as many units to overcome your opponent. I just thought that adding a +1 modifier each time they lost would stop them from repeating the same mistake several times.
     
  16. Alcatraz

    Alcatraz Chieftain

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    I like the ability to offer techs/units/cities/money to remove neg mods idea.
     
  17. uncarved block

    uncarved block Prince

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    The only modification I'd like to see is removing the penalty for refusing military help to an AI that declared war on you. Why should you get punished for not jumping into bed with someone who was trying to kill you earlier?
    Think of it as the inverse to the lack of penalty when you refuse to help someone who's Pleased with you-- a "too ticked off to make a difference" status, if you will.
     
  18. Artanis

    Artanis King

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    All you need to do for that to happen is to beat the hell out of them the first time they try it. If you kill their units and then don't do anything else to them, then of course they'll try it again, because all they stand to lose is a few hammers' worth of troops.
     
  19. DynamicSpirit

    DynamicSpirit Fear him of the pink tie Moderator GOTM Staff

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    I think what you're bringing up is a specific instance of a more general problem - that the AI doesn't seem to remember what tactics work and what doesn't - which means it keeps making the same mistakes over and over again (which also can make it unrealistically easy to go to war against them - eg. you can just lure an opponent's units into exactly the same trap over and over again, where a human being would learn after the first time). The solution to that IMO is better AI coding, not just additional modifiers.
     
  20. Karnor

    Karnor Chieftain

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    +1 “For some reason we decided to declare war on you despite your civilization having 1,000 more score than us. Your tanks promptly destroyed the handful of knights and catapults we landed on your shore. Your battleships chased down and destroyed our frigates before marauding along our coastline, bombarding our cities, destroying our entire naval power and generally making a nuisance of themselves. Fifteen turns later we decided were no longer too furious to talk and agreed to pay you lots of money to kindly stop attacking us.”

    -8 “We are so stupid that we are thinking about declaring war on you again.”
     

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