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Your single favorite leadership trait?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Capt Ajax, May 21, 2009.

?

Favorite Single Leadership Trait

  1. Philosophical - 100% Great People Birth / Fast University

    14 vote(s)
    6.2%
  2. Aggressive - Combat 1 Promo / Fast Barracks & Dry Dock

    4 vote(s)
    1.8%
  3. Spiritual - No anarchy, Fast Temple

    20 vote(s)
    8.9%
  4. Organized - -50% upkeep / Fast Courthouse/Factory/Lthouse

    28 vote(s)
    12.4%
  5. Expansive - +2 Health per City / 25% Faster Worker / Faster Granary & Harbor

    4 vote(s)
    1.8%
  6. Industrious - +50 % Wonder Production / Faster Forge

    13 vote(s)
    5.8%
  7. Charismatic - -25% for Unit Promos +1 Happy per City / +1 Happy per Monument & Broadcast Tower

    16 vote(s)
    7.1%
  8. Creative - +2 Culture per City / Faster Theatre, Colosseum, Library

    45 vote(s)
    20.0%
  9. Imperialistic - 100% Great General Emergence / Faster Settler Production

    10 vote(s)
    4.4%
  10. Protective - Free Garrison Promo / Faster Walls & Castle

    7 vote(s)
    3.1%
  11. Financial - +1$ on Plots already producing 2$

    57 vote(s)
    25.3%
  12. This has been done before and YOU SUCK for doing it again!

    7 vote(s)
    3.1%
  1. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    @ mystyfly: Seconded, although I'm now sure it would change all that much.

    My favourite trait (ORG) loses out to the closest alternative (FIN) on low levels, my second favourite one (IND) drops off if you play beyond your comfort zone. SPI and PRO I feel become better at high levels of play, because they keep you safer (obvious for PRO, and SPI is a great diplomacy tool) and benefit from active leveraging (overflow abuse for PRO, heavy civic swapping for SPI to emulate whatever trait you need at the time).



    @ StJude1: Depends on what you mean by overpowered. Some other combinations are more impressive in the right circumstances. However, IND/PHI would...

    - be perfect for OCC games, to the extent it's an advantage rather than additional challenge
    - dominate low-level play where snagging all wonders is easy. Something that's no problem at the higher levels but a massive imbalance in the eyes of casual players would still hurt the game.
     
  2. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    @Iranon: I expect lots of players would favour other traits slightly on difficulties below their skill level. What I expect to have an even bigger effect on the poll results is that lower difficulties allow alternative strategies. Example: On emperor-immortal I'd love to have IND to get some of the shiny wonders built - on deity however I don't see much use of the trait as I won't have great chances of scoring the wonders anyway.
    Other examples are SPI, CRE, IMP, all of which I'd expect to find more love on higher levels while traits like CHA might be preffered on the lower levels. Again, I think those tendencies might appear not (only) because the traits aren't as useful as on other levels, but because of the different playstyles on different levels.
     
  3. sabo

    sabo My Ancestors were Vikings

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    I meant creative.. sorry, I was thinking creative but my fingers had other ideas. I was watching tv while typing, I guess my multitasking skills needs improvement ;)
     
  4. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
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    Philosophical is my single favorite trait.

    I'm so used to its effect on generating great people that it sometimes feels like I'm handicapped when I'm playing without it. And there's something intensely gratifying about beelining Education with great scientist lightbulbs and getting fast universities from it.
     
  5. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    I must say, fast universities are usually underestimated. They help you get up oxford so much faster - and comes around the time research takes off (villages and towns, Printing Press, Free Speech).

    Getting an early academy is nice too OFC.

    I think what makes it less popular is the fact that lots of ppl don't leverage it properly and thus find it weak. I personnally find it a good trait, able to compete with financial or industrious.
     
  6. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    How do you leverage PHI properly?

    It's useful if you spam wonders and settle the GP... not great but possibly better than other economic traits at least for a compact empire.

    It's useful if you emphasise specialists and make a lightbulb-assisted beeline to a game breaker. The natural use and one that isn't helped as much by other traits, but I'm not even convinced it's the strongest.

    It's useful to provide enough trade fodder to keep up while you do something else - like setting up cottages or heavy warmongering. The diminishing returns on GPP mean PHI will give a decent edge even if you don't go overboard with specialists.

    *

    The cheaper Universities are helpful if you want to get Education early and set up a nice Oxford-assisted science city, but even then it's hardly the strongest building discount. I'll go for this in most games with PHI leaders, but that alone doesn't really leverage the trait all that impressively from my experience.
    PHI is more of a trait that gives one a variety of useful options rather than pushing one tight strategy over the top.
     
  7. mystyfly

    mystyfly Knight of Cydonia

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    In my opinion, phi is strongest when you do one of the following things: You REX until you are down to 0% science or you plan to do a renaissance war.

    If you overexpand, you must find some way to recover and catch up in techs. After a few turns you may get your eco back on track but you are still behind in techs, and quite much, usually.
    A nice bulb can make you catch up instantly with the AI (example: USuns Justinian deity game, if you may remember it), and not after long turns of waiting for a GP, but really fast. Since you get your GPs fast the early bulb is next to no setback in your future GP plans.
    OFC you can use those bulbs to catch up later too.

    If you plan to go to war with draftles for example, which is quite common, you'd love to bulb your way trought to lib. Say, you could bulb philo, paper, edu x2, lib x2, PP. That's 7 bulbed GPs. You take RP or rifling off lib and you're in a great position. I don't think you can do that much bulbing without philo as the GPs don't arrive in time and you may as well selfresearch those techs. Speed is king in all wars, especially when it is with a new powerful unit like the rifleman.

    Other uses OFC are GAs and corporations. It might be hard to get your preferred GP for a special corp and running only the kind of spec might take quite long without philo, or, give you rather low odds. I think philo is very useful in generating a special kind of GP.

    With a lot of GPs, there are a lot of GAs. The boost GPP even further, among with other things. That makes MoM a very attractive wonder (one, that is not really favoured by the AI and not too expensive).


    One of the biggest downsides with philo is that NE and pacifism lose lot of their appeal. Non-phi-leaders get their GPP doubled when they switch to pac, phi leaders "only" get the GPP trippled. However, if you are warring or keep some units around pacifism isn't that appealing anyway...
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    EXP holding the fewest votes. I guess because even though it's a really solid trait, it's kind of bland :p.

    Still, the cheap workers/granaries make for a substantial advantage, especially the granaries, which get 1 pop whipped or chopped ASAP for some rapid-growth new sites. Probably hard for a lot of people to see its effects though since they're not painstakingly obvious w/ casual play.
     
  9. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    I find CRE and EXP to be the best early economic traits through whip/chop overflows to maintain 100% deficit research. Following around every new settler with a 3 man chop crew nets you almost 200 gold per city w/ a granary.

    Quite frequently I achieve 9 great scientist before 1000 AD with non-philo non-industrious leaders. It's a matter of map luck with marble around, Parthenon, TGL, NE, Pacifism.

    I also like Industrious quite a bit on the higher levels for quicker NE/HE/OX and my mid-late game transition to a HE. In conjunction with solid bulbing through Chemistry and SM I find I'm able to grab Communism in the 1150-1250 range, and with a quick civic change have workshops over all my cottages very fast (lots done before too). Biology and an extremely early NP then helps finish the transition nicely.
     
  10. The Rook

    The Rook King

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    Nov 6, 2007
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    The good thing about Philo is that you can obtain plenty of great people even without marble, NE, GL, religion, pacifism etc. You don't even need a dedicated GP farm, if you run a bunch of mini farms in parallel.

    Pericles is great for parallel GP generation. Creative for fast rexing and cheap libraries, with a single food source you can run two scientists pre-caste in a minor city. The capital can focus on growth and cottages, preparing for (fast) Oxford and bureaucracy. I've tried this on an isolated Immortal start, and all of the first 7 great people came from different cities! I didn't have marble, so the NE and GL were less attractive. However, stone was available so I built the Mids, and rep was strong here. Anyway, lib was in 700 AD-ish, and to my surprise when I met the other civs, I found that Pericles was effectively the tech leader. Once SP was in, the mini GP farms retired and became production cities, with the exception of one that was a prime candidate for NE+NP.

    I think parallel GP farms are situational, but it just seems that GP generation with Philo is effortless. In ideal circumstances you can get numerous GPs, in difficult situations (early war, no marble etc) you get a reasonable number.

    I agree that Creative is a strong trait btw, for both peaceful and aggressive expansion. Expansive is underrated imo. As TMIT pointed out, it doesn't have any exciting features, just a montage of useful ones.
     
  11. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    I enjoy the "mini-farm" strategy with philosophical leaders as well; it's a good way to leverage the trait and get a few great people before you set up a dedicated GP farm. (Although I can't say that I've run seven before, usually it's just two or three.)
     
  12. Aemilius

    Aemilius Guest from Overseas

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    Philosophical, although Imperialistic comes close.
     
  13. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I really need to remember to do this. Even the workers to do it are cheap! Even w/o it the trait is strong...I'm replaying LHC Sury right now (god I was bad when it came out...), and he's RIDICULOUS. So easy to expand into all the land and get the cottages going (not to mention the easier earlier GS or two) Actually the hard part about that map is the runaway AI when you ultimately get there though. But, there are ways to beat runaway AIs after all, especially the backwards kind ;).
     
  14. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    @ TMIT

    Yep^^. Imo, 2 of the strongest leaders in the game are Cathy and Sury (barring leaders with abusive UU). Jao is pretty damn good too but I just prefer CRE more, although getting SH with Jao doesn't slow you down too much - but can still effect the ability to chop within your BFC. Other new found love and combos for me are Shaka and Kublai who both double up on buildings and have some nice UB/UUs. Anyways, basically anyone with CRE or EXP lol.

    Sure, Sury isn't Imperialistic but Expansive does let him chop at will and the quicker workers make up some difference. I actually use the same opening strategies with virtually any leader and have been changing my favorites due to my new found addiction to gold/whip/chop and deficit spending.

    It's quite simple, a Leader w/out CRE, EXP, or AGG will always tech significantly slower, period. I mean, there's no way around it. Honestly, how else can someone maintain 100% research for nearly every single game turn through 1 AD?
     
  15. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    Could someone explain this to me? I've read posts about chop overflow getting converted to gold but never understood exactly what it meant, let alone how it worked.
     
  16. Crusher1

    Crusher1 King

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    2 workers chop 2 forest till 1 turn of completion (do not finish). Build a library (CRE), granary (EXP), barracks (AGG), till 1 turn from completion. When the forest and building are both at 1 turn Whip the building and chop the forest. Feel free to use 3 workers/3 chops if you are Expansive or have plenty of forest around for more gold.

    Whipping consecutive buildings (both built to 1 turn of completion) will net you the most potential gold (i.e., 3 pop whip immediately followed by a 2 pop whip), although there is a limit to the excess hammers that will go into the next building, therefore it's important to gauge the proper amount of overflow - the majority of the chopping will be on the 2nd whip.

    Settling a worthless tundra city with no food or resources can net you a nice profit if it has lots of forest. Simply chop all the forest with mass workers in conjunction with the whip, then gift the worthless city to the nearest AI.
     
  17. Ghpstage

    Ghpstage Deity

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    A certain number of :hammers: are needed to build something, any hammers more than this (overflow) are put into the next build. Overflow caps at the cost of the building + base hammers the city makes, any beyond turn into gold ;)

    This can be used to your advantage quite easily by chopping multiple forests on the same turn and using the whip to create massive :hammers: overflow, well beyond the limit.
    The gold produced if building wealth is only 1:gold: per :hammers: and chops/whip arent allowed a 1:1 conversion rate!

    But in the case of overflow gold your gold overflow is increased by double build speed modifiers like Creative for libraries, or Protective on walls and also Organised Religion which can lead to huge gold returns. My personal record being a whopping 400 :gold: from one wall on normal speed :lol:, enough to run 100% science for quite some time.

    Protective is best known for this trick as walls are increased to treble speed if you have stone leading to 3:1 gold:hammers beyond the gold overflow limit.
    It is very effective for leaders with double build speed traits, expansive for granaries, aggresive for barracks etc
    But any civ can use it on a number of things including warriors :lol: whips and chops on those can go far! And even workboats in the Heroic Epic city with a Drydock + Forge + Factory etc

    I'm unsure if it works on Vanilla or Warlords though :(
    Article here
     
  18. Spectator20

    Spectator20 Chieftain

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    Imperialistic. Like in all the Civ games, you get the settlers out early enough and it's pretty much a win anyway. The GG is just icing on the cake, free promotions in the military city or super units, and they also give some science under Representation when the war is over.
     
  19. Dragonxander PR

    Dragonxander PR Emperor of the Drakons

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    Charismatic: I can't stand my subjects' whining & its improductivity penalty!! That problem is especially frustrating to me during the Ancient & Classical eras. Consider that in BtS, in Noble difficulty, the cities' default happiness is set to 4 points, & for me, a city is near useless if it has 4 population points or less.

    Also, the cheaper cost for military promotions is a nice add-up, IMO.
     
  20. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    In the early days of my gameplay, i would pick AGG, because of the easily tangible benefit. Now, however, i pick CRE, which is what i use to expand close to the enemy and pop my borders quickly, hopefully plunging a city or 2 in my culture before they can get monuments up. It's good at any stage of the game you make cities at (And definitely useful after some conquest), and lets me save a few hammers on monuments, so overall, it's my favorite trait.

    I tend to avoid FIN leaders, because I feel they make the game to easy (And don't get me started on the Dutch), so the order of the traits I like:

    CRE, CHA, SPI, and IND.
     

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