Your thoughts on this start? (Monarch level)

[Darkeagle6]

Hello everyone!

I last posted in the Civilization IV forums about a year and a half ago, back when I was brand new to Civilization and strategy games in general. I developped a Civ IV obsession which lasted for a while, I got to the point where I could beat prince without trouble, but I was having trouble dealing with the more detailed understanding required for Monarch level and above (at least that's how it felt). I tried to post a few games on the forums, felt overwhelmed with all of the commentary (good commentary, mind ) I received, and ended up taking a break from Civ IV (I had been playing it for a good 350 hours in a few months, in spite of school).

Since then, I've played more strategy games (mainly TW: Shogun II and Civ V), and I feel a bit more comfortable with the genre. I've been getting the itch to play Civ IV again. I've played a few games on Noble to get back into it (tech tree quite a bit more complex than in Civ V, not to mention more difficult to read XD) and I'm glad to see that I can still run circles around the Noble AI tech-wise, though I'm still very rusty.

Anyway, I just started a Monarch level game, randomly drew Saladin. It felt like a pretty difficult start, and I don't think I was very successful with it, as my playing was rather (very) sloppy. I thought it would be interesting to see what the players from this forum would do with it though, so I'm submitting the starting save in case anyone is interested

Here's the start:

Spoiler :

Quick reminder, just in case: Saladin is SPI/PRO, starts with Mysticism and The Wheel.

And a very quick rundown of what I did, for those who may be interested:

Spoiler :

SIP. Warrior first while waiting for fishing, then mining - BW. Saw that I started really close to Babylon as the only other player on the island. Decided to try a rush, started planning an axe rush (BW for all those cap site forests) before I realised what Babylon's UU was. Derp. Switched to going for horses, ended up halfway between chariots (late) and HAs (never used them before...). Got the enemy Capital, but they had too much bowmen in their second city. Probably could've done something from there, but I didn't keep a save. So yeah. First rush attempt at Monarch, first rush attempt since starting Civ IV again, which explains the sloppiness. Still, I'm planning on trying this start again a few times to see how I can improve.

So, thanks to anyone who tries this and comments on it. In any case, have fun!

 

[Pengu]

Man, a bit tricky

Until 1655 AD

Spoiler :

This was actually a bit tricky. Not because of the start that much, but the map as a whole. Attacking Hammy early is just a big no as his bowman eats all melee untis for breakfast. Sure, you can go construction but it is not worth it and Hammy isn't that terrible of a neighbour.

So I SIP and met Hammy rather quickly. Went fishing, Min, BW. I stole a worker from Hammy and made peace as I needed that worker early on to help chopping my forrests.Went sailing, masonry just to get GLH once I found out I was on an island.I must say room is a big problem as there is only room fro 10-15 cities. Thought about trying for the Oracle and got lucky and founded judaism on the way. This helped my happiness. I didn't want to pollute my GP pool so I built the oracle in my city to the south and picked MC. Stupid Hammy settled on the bronze closest to me and was right in my face. So I went and settled cities on almost the entire coastline around him
Both for the GLH and just to get cities. This meant I got bronze and built the colossus.I got 7 cities and that was what I was going to work with for a long time. After MC I went Alpha and traded for AH and Agri from Hammy. After that it was straight for Optics. Sent my GM to Babylon for 900 gold to tech at 100%. Then after optics I quickly whipped 4 caravels and explored the oceans. I also brough along my 2nd GM to find the ToA. I then I spent 1 GS to help bulb Astro and at 580 AD I got it.
Poor Charly was all alone and so backwards in tech.
The problem in this game is the huge continent, with at least 50 % of the entire landmass. On that continent you had some capable Ai in Zara, Hannibal and Quin. Toku was also there. Noone liked me cause of religion but with trades I got Zara to pleased. My econmy was booming with Astro and noone had optics then.
Found ToA and got 1300 gold. The problem is that all those supid Ai's have a ton of land and Hannibl and Quin got over 10 cities peacefully. I had to do something about that lovefest I thought and bribed Zara on Hannibal as he was the biggest by a small margin. This slowed down both of them but I didn't ant to bribe Quin in as it would lead to dogpile. Meanwhile I used the money to tech to economics and to lib rifling. I lost out on the Taj cause I was slow and got no marble After getting MT I dowed Hammy and just cleared him off the map. Took less than 10 turns. He was nice and built the AP, TGL and the chapel for me. Now I had 12-13 cites and things was looking good, or so I thought...¨
On the other continent Hannibla was getting behind in tech but he started to crush Ethiopia. I didn't want Zara to vassal to hannibal so I bribed Quin in on Hannibal. Soon thereafter Zara and hannibal made peace and I thought perfect, now I can backstab Quin. Then disaster strikes as 7 city Toku just decides to peacevassal to Quin and short thereafter 6 city Zara peacevassals to Quin. So now Quin is a 25 city monster...
And toi top it of Hannibal and Quin make peace after hannibal lost a city.
I needed to go for Quin as he was getting close to rifling, but it would be terrible fighting a war on that huge continent vs almost everyone. So I take the easy route and DOW Hannibal who everyone hates. He sure was stubborn but after I took 5 of his cities he finally cap. I gave back all his cities as I am going to need his help. I have totally switched my production to cannons now as everyone has rifling. Charly isn't close of course and he is no threat whatsoever. My plan is to start world war 3 with me and Hannibal vs those 3. I think I will attack China 1st.
That war will decide everything, but I can't let Quin live.

 

[Pengu]

1832 Conquest

Spoiler :

So, it finally ends. I just vassaled Quin, Toku and Zara and then took out poor Charly.
Cannons with cavs and rifles made it easy in the end. But a good Monarch map if you like continents. I do prefer pangea as it takes forever to send you armies back across the world.

 

[Darkeagle6]

Thanks very much for your input, Pengu! I tried again this evening before reading your post (I wanted to give myself another shot before seeing what anyone else did), here's how it ended up:

Spoiler :

I decided to rush Hammurabi again, this time with straight Horse Archers. Why? Mainly 'cause I'd never done it before, and I figured they should do well against his Bowmen, since their bonus vs melee wouldn't apply. Not sure if I did well with it, but I certainly captured his three cities. Of course, I wasn't going blind, so I had a huge advantage.

I also started fishing - mining - BW, and followed up with hunting - AH. Put hammers into a warrior and grew while teching fishing, switched to workboat as soon as available (not sure if optimal?). Finished the warrior and then went for a worker, to be ready around the same time as BW for chopping another workboat. Hammurabi settled the spot(ish) I wanted to the east of my capital, but thankfully there were more horses to the south, and it had the unintended benefit of helping to spawn bust. The details after that are a bit fuzzy, but I managed to get 6-ish Horse Archers by 1000BC/turn 75, with a few more to be whipped/chopped within a few turns, which I have no idea how it compares to a proper HA rush but I'm guessing is kinda late. Didn't have much commerce for teching Horseback Riding... Also, I feel like attacking then was a bit risky, I definitely had a few lucky combat rolls and it ended up fairly tight. It might have been safer to wait for two extra HAs.

Right now my concern is immediate economy bolstering and well-sustained expansion, as the island is uncontested. Hammurabi went and founded 3 (!) religions, so I'm actually wondering if it would be a good idea to use those Madrassas to generate a Great Prophet or two, help spreading the religions along and have shrine income bolster my economy. Aside from that, this is always where I start losing my sense of direction in the tech tree. I'm not going to think too hard about iit now, but I imagine that important techs might be monarchy and construction for happiness to allow growth, and of course optics to meet the other AIs (I'm a bit apprehensive XD).

That aside, however, I'm planning on trying this start again at least twice. Once to try Pengu's peaceful approach, which I imagine would give me a stronger early economy, and another to try an earlier chariot rush to compare the results (no idea if this actually a good idea!).

In any case, thanks again to Pengu, I thought the write up was interesting. I'd love to hear from more users as well And in case anyone is interested in critiquing my play, I'm attaching a save file from where I left off in the above commentary. Please keep in mind, of course, that I'm still learning and probably made a number of noobish mistakes.

Cheers!

 

[barbertje]

Comparing horse archers with a chariot rush.

Spoiler :

1000 BC is quite good for attacking with horse archers, and being done at 750 BC is even better. Of course it did help that Hammurabi still wasn't in slavery and had built the oracle, instead of more bowmen.

There is a price however, because teching horsebackriding and archery before writing really slows down your teching. This isn't so bad on a pangaea map where you can exchange horseback riding for 60% of alfabet.

The chariot rush was done in 1040 BC wich is only 11 turns sooner, but I had already completed a madrassa by then. I played on until 750 BC.

my save with chariot rush:
5 cities, 19 pop.
7 workers, 8 chariots, 2 warriors
alfabet and 179 beakers into currency, due in 7.
2 madrassas, 2 barracks, 1 granary nearly done, 40% of a settler
great scientist due in 13 turns.
141 gold left
producing 54 beakers at 100% research, 26 at breakeven
1 happiness resource hooked up.

horse archers
5 cities, 18 pop. 5 turns of revolt left, and babylon will starve down to 4, because all the food is in the second ring.
2 barracks, stable, granary, monument, 0.35 madrassa and 0.5 granary in production
5 workers, 5 horse archers, 2 warrors
horseback riding, archery, and 119 beakers in math.
a great general
262 gold left
producing 27 beakers at 100% research, 16 at breakeven.

You're not much beakers behind yet, but a lot of your beakers are in techs that are now useless, while thanks to building research and scientists, the chariot save is now researching much faster, and is much closer to currency and and academy.

After currency, The next tech-target must be monarchy, because there is little happiness.

View attachment Saladin BC-0750.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Quibblesome]

Spoiler :

Well after Hammy took that spot nearby with horses I decided to cat rush with archers after grabbing writing. Three cities: the SIP, 1 to the south with clams and fish and 1 to the north using the deer and the lakes to work the silver.

Was about to sack the last Hammy city (he had 5) ~125AD. Gaining Judaism and Christian Holy cities in the deal. Realised I was isolated and could not be bothered to either boat war or go for my only other aim which was cultural victory. With the phat capital cities (hammys is very nice too) it would be pretty straight forward to crank out cathedrals and as I could have easily grabbed Confucianism, Taoism and Islam that would make 5 cathedrals per city. But I'm afraid my Hall of Fame tendancies got to me and baulked at the fact that I was already at 125AD and decided to just leave it there.

Interesting map, especially with Hammy so close and the first time I ever cat rushed.... but I didn't really see much alternative once he took the nearby horses (I hadn't yet spotted the ones to the south).

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

It is quite the stinker.

 

[Fippy]

Leaving all other things aside here, SIP looks like a mistake.
Easily visible that you will block out a nice coastal city either N or S, for food sharing.
Plains Hill S too, so you can either settle 1N or 1S, and place another city on one of these.

 

[barbertje]

Leaving all other things aside here, SIP looks like a mistake.
Easily visible that you will block out a nice coastal city either N or S, for food sharing.
Plains Hill S too, so you can either settle 1N or 1S, and place another city on one of these.

I'm not exited about your fog-gazing skills.

Spoiler :

you can in fact settle 3 or 4 S and share a clam, or 3N or 4N 1E and share the deer

 

[lymond]

^^^I'm sure Fippy is referring to more than sharing just 1 marginal food resource. (oh...and although forest deer is a nice tile, I would not classify it as "food sharing". Furthermore, speculating on some city up in that wasteland is pretty pointless) the idea here is that you can create two strong early cities by settling 1N or 1S that share an overabundance of food

 

[Pengu]

SIP is fine. You can share one water tile to the south and the deer to a city up north.
3 water tiles isn't that much for your capitol.
I just am not comfortable with Horse archers anymore as I used to like it.
They are way too fragile and they will be eaten alive if the AI has a few spears. Also you normally get HA so soon that you won't have currency or col=your economy is always in the risk of crashing when doing such a war.
Sure, if Shaka or Monty is my neighbour I might see it differently...

 

[Izuul]

I would go 1N. 1 clam isn't really food sharing when you have 2 clam + 2 fish + deer.

 

[learner gamer]

Had a quick run through and agree with @lymond: the key here IMHO is to settle two cities to use all that food.

Quick overview to 900 BC.

Spoiler :

With the thought of sharing food in mind, I opted to move the warrior N to check for any other resources and settled 1N. That allowed me to open worker and hunting > fishing > mining > BW > AH. The worker was then able to improve the deer to get the city growing ASAP and then used it's spare time leveraging the fact that Saladin starts with TW and laid down a few roads – one of which enabled city #2 to the south (which will share some of Mecca's food) to be connected immediately.

Early scouting revealed Hammy nearby and when he settled the sheep / horses he had to go. As a result, I put a granary and a barracks in the capital (followed by chariots), and the other two cities (the third for the horses) just whipped untrained chariots. Attacked in 975 BC with 11 chariots – and given that I won a battle at 8.5% (and Saladin built SH), I'd be interested to see if it's possible to cut it much finer...even if I did have a couple of untrained chariots left to attack (and reinforce) had that battle been lost. Perhaps the barracks and granaries could be skipped for more chariots?

Mecca is now busy chopping TGLH (and starving in the process to maximise hammers), which will be great to get but at least provides fail gold otherwise. City #2 meanwhile is building a settler for the silver, for some much needed early commerce and a happy cap boost. Key decision now IMHO is whether early monarchy (for meditation and priesthood en route given that Hammy founded two religions) beats alpha...so have the slider at zero whilst I explore and look to build a madrassa.

 

[lindsay40k]

There's a GP farm capital if ever I saw one.

Spoiler :

Had a crack at an early religion game & Hammu kill, followed by an isolated Culture game.

Got a couple cities sorted, built a Madras whilst Oracling CoL, had a GP ready to build Shrine. Hammu founded Hinduism & Judaism, built Kashi with SH GP.

I've bulbed Theology, am on track to bulb Philo. Took Babylon & Jewish HC with Chariots, but my early rush sucks and I took peace. My second city (Confucian/Christian double holy!) and Babylon are perfect Culture cities, and with SC Mecca will do the trick as a GA Farm.

Probably going to convert to Hinduism once I've spread it, to help grow Babylon and reconcile with Hammu. Got a GG settled in a good hammer city, that'll keep me secure if he gets any ideas about payback.

May beeline semi-isolated Culture win, may tap Optics to find a continent full of pagans to introduce to these lovely religions.

Unfortunately, hardware problems are causing Civ to freeze up. I'll come back and finish it, sometime :/

 

[lindsay40k]

Had another go.

Spoiler :

Built SH for GPP. Oracled CoL. Bulbed Theo. Tried a HA rush. Grabbed Babylon, but trying to get Sistine Chapel made me fizzle out. Someone somewhere founded Taoism. I've got three religions, will grab a fourth with Cuirs, and might well nab Islam with a GP. Assuming Windows stops freezing all the ruddy time, might be do-able.

With Hammy next door and Madras available, the problem isn't having enough religions. It's a question of building SC without marble whilst grabbing Babylon as the third Culture city.