Zeppelin

Tekamthi

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a while ago there was a thread about recon promotions... from what I recall we started to focus on zeppelin before we were correctly diverted back to the promo issue. It was proposed that zeppelin deserved its own conversation... thoughts?

I really like this unit -- but it feels a strange fit in the existing recon line. Its the only ranged unit in an otherwise melee family. Its often just "forgotten" by my builders, before I can get around to building any -- the paratrooper tech is very often a high priority in many games, both due to era and the military value of this and other nearby techs (I can't remember now exactly what these are, flight/AA etc?) I am often either on the brink of clinching a win or clawing back into first through this stage of most games -- military tends to outweigh most other concerns in these cirumstances, at least in my playstyle.

I specifically like the hybrid role it can play in coasts, so much so that I've often extended this feature to all oceans in my own modded-play. It seems to me that there's almost enough historical basis for a naval-recon upgrade line, ending in zeppelin, a more advanced airship (the US made prominent use of these for several decades post-WWII in a supporting role.. some could move at ~130km/h they say), and then maybe a naval helicopter? There's an entire unitcombat_helicopter sitting unused, under the hood in VP right now. There's also a navalrecon AI that is used in VP, but usually as a secondary AI on other naval units. VP recently killed the workboat scouting role, and rightly so, but this leaves a small gap maybe. There's enough custom artwork made by now to fill these roles as well, assuming the authors don't take issue with them being used here. This idea is probably a mod-mod solution though, at this point.

Any other ideas of how this unit can fit in a little better?
 
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The problem is the zeppelin falls right in the crack. It’s too late for exploring, thst is mostly done st this point.

And it’s before the recon switchover, where they become forward motion military with strong pillage capability.

I honestly just see it is as a unit without a niche...simply because we have covered the key niches in the game.
 
... where they become forward motion military with strong pillage capability.

This is one aspect I am not a fan of.. I don't think this is a very good representation of what this technology was historically valued for.. at best bombings by zeppelin-era airships destroyed small handfuls of civilians, and maybe caused some minor infrastructure damage on a nuisance level.. but to think it could render an entire region of farms unusable more effectively than infantry on the ground, where even more advanced bombers that effectively coincide with zeppelin becoming obsolete can't do this, is one of the few remaining aspects that I find too much a stretch for civ's sim-game balance.

I agree with the need for recon to transition into a effective combat role, though. To fix the flow of this upgrade line while meeting players' needs, and working loosely w/in the parameters of VP's mostly-finished state, maybe the following might fit better than a whole new upgrade line:
  • mod explorer to upgrade to a new "expedition" unit (if i remember correctly, there's an "adventurer" in ExCE? cannibalize this?) -- I'm theorizing here that what was once the columbus-era "explorer" became the early-industrial-era lewis and clark "expedition", at least moreso than the zeppelin. To make this unit flow more naturally into what eventually becomes the paratrooper, I might give it the ability to enter rival territory; it can then be your surprise pillager from neutral lands etc, and thus have a role vaguely reminiscent of the paratrooper it will eventually become.
  • make zeppelin its own parrallel quasi-unique unit, w/ a slight shift towards its naval/land/observational hybrid role historically (eg remove pillage ability but allow it to cross ocean unembarked.. there may be little land exploring in this era, but usually still lots of ocean), and have it upgrade to gunship. Add a dependency on some resource, like the mounted elephants in early game. Consider maybe requiring cows or sheep in city radius? "It took more than 250,000 cows to make a single airship and the animals’ intestines became so precious that making the popular bratwurst and other sausages was temporarily made illegal in areas under German control." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eded-make-Zeppelin-airship.html#ixzz589Iq7yHu
 
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Maybe make zeppelins more specialised for visibility across war fronts in the late game? If they automatically had increased visibility range promotions it would make them worth keeping even when the option of upgrading to pillaging paratroopers becomes available. Kind of like a stepping stone to satellites giving full visibility.
 
iirc Zeppelins can't use terrain or road movement bonus, which makes them poor as an exploration unit. Their combat isn't anything to write home about either.

I think the one time I got use out of a Zeppelin was using it as a roadblock for enemy melee ships. I think it's immune to their attack?
 
I too don't see much use for the Zeppelin as it stands. It's very slow, I'd consider giving it 5 or 6 movement points, considering it can't use roads.

I must admit I can't recall at the moment if it can move after attacking, but if it can't, I'd consider giving it the "skirmisher" promotion (ability to move after attacking). I think it can't.

These things would allow a more "hit & run" approach to pillaging/bombarding that would somehow represent how they were quite a nuisance from the skies.
 
I'm a fan of the hybrid role idea. I really like how the unit can move freely on and off coastline, and I think the spotter/visibility support role could really be played up, especially for a naval setting.

I don't like the idea of increasing their vision or movement just to make them powerful enough to be useful. The Zepp would end up over-buffed as a bizarre compensation for having no niche. Buffs aren't a solution

Zeppelins/airships were most effective in their role as sub-spotters, keeping allied shipping safe during both world wars:
  • Allow zeppelins to enter deep ocean without embarking
  • Give Zepps anti-submarine vision
  • remove sub-vision from destroyers, move it back to aircraft carriers (destroyers still have a very important role as melee ships and aircraft interceptor, but they really do everything right now. Destroyers are just too versatile)
  • Zepps still upgrade to paratroopers (flight tech), but they OBSOLETE at Computers (aircraft carrier takes over anti-sub role), so you can still build them until you have aircraft carriers take over the anti-sub role
Zeppelin vision far exceeds that of naval units already, except they have to embark to enter deep ocean, so they are currently useless as ocean spotters. This also helps with the AI's issue with naval combat, with units attacking and then retreating into FoW so the AI doesn't know where they went. If Zepps had some naval recon flavour added to them they could help mitigate the AI's shortcomings. This gives them a role as advance scouts for your cruisers/ironclads, and then makes them invaluable in later eras for fighting off sub wolfpacks
 
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I do not want to see zeppelins made stronger by removing things from other units. Destroyers are fine and good units. They get such versatility because melee ships are weakened at a time when better ranged ships, long range planes, and eventually very long range missiles become commonplace.

I would rather see the zepplin discontinued than feel we have to take away from other well designed units to make it work.
 
I would rather see the zepplin discontinued than feel we have to take away from other well designed units to make it work.

Sssshhhh.. you're gonna wake the Gazebo lyric machine again

When I read the news that it told me, it made me sad sad sad
But I still love you so
I can't let you go
 
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  • remove sub-vision from destroyers, move it back to aircraft carriers (destroyers still have a very important role as melee ships and aircraft interceptor, but they really do everything right now. Destroyers are just too versatile)
  • Zepps still upgrade to paratroopers (flight tech), but they OBSOLETE at Computers (aircraft carrier takes over anti-sub role), so you can still build them until you have aircraft carriers take over the anti-sub role

I suspect the AI will struggle with this, without major changes there too. zep as an additional/alternate anti-sub tool sounds nice though. Or zep near cruiser provides the latter with sub-vision (I *think* i setup something like this in one of my mods...) Sometimes as tall civ especially, I need land units and cant afford supply cap for more naval for anti-sub duties. Zep w/ some kind of anti-sub ability fits in well for this role. I think though it would need to upgrade to truly be useful... there is some art somewhere... (here)

G, there was more than one good album, after all... :mischief: (jk, i can mod it)
 
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I’m sure I’m misunderstanding how the AI works, but isn’t that more or less a matter of tweaking flavours?

You and I are describing a naval niche for the zeppelin, but right now the AI has no naval flavour. Would it be as simple as reducing its land flavours and increasing its naval ones to be larger than its land ones?

Maybe the sub could give a CS bonus vs sub units to all units within 2 tiles? Code exists for that already
 
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