• 📚 Admin Project Update: I've added a major feature to PictureBooks.io called Avatar Studio! You can now upload photos to instantly turn your kids (and pets! 🐶) into illustrated characters that star in their own stories. Give it a try and let me know what you think!

Zohran Mamdani

but yea, in other words, i wish this thread was more serious. it is incredibly tiring that no serious distillation of the prospects of mamdani's policies are attempted, no overview of what having a "democratic socialist" mayor would look like (esp with america's completely mundane history with socialist mayors pre red scare)
In that case, getting back to the actual topic:
Regarding priorities,
Hochul appears to be on board with universal child care, even if she's squeamish about taxes.
Rent Freezing is presumably doable given that de Blasio also did it.
 
hochul has been kind of treated warily in leftist circles, esp in regards to this. but yea i think i remember reading she isn't opposed to zohran at least. do we have any formal declarations of alignments somewhere?
 
@Angst imo there is an interesting discussion to be had about how factions within DSA are processing Zohran's activities right now. It's interesting because I agree with DSA left on a lot of the substance of their criticisms of Zohran (especially retaining the police commissioner Tisch) but I am willing to give Zohran a lot of benefit of the doubt, and I also understand that in engaging in electoral politics on the Democratic Party ballot line, DSA is necessarily acting as a small part of a larger coalition and it makes no sense to take positions of maximum opposition to all other elements of that coalition. Rather the right approach seems to be to win power within the coalition by delivering on standard good-governance stuff and on points of agreement between liberals and socialiats, so as to later be in a position to dictate terms to the coalition. Part of what this means in practice of course is not picking a fight to the death with the NYPD at the outset of Zohran's mayoral term. But on the other hand I'm not sure real conciliation with the NYPD is possible and Tisch could turn out to be quite the scorpion in Zohran's shoe.

At the end of the day I'm trusting Zohran for now, his (and his team's) instincts and judgment have gotten him into the mayor's office.
 
@Angst imo there is an interesting discussion to be had about how factions within DSA are processing Zohran's activities right now. It's interesting because I agree with DSA left on a lot of the substance of their criticisms of Zohran (especially retaining the police commissioner Tisch) but I am willing to give Zohran a lot of benefit of the doubt, and I also understand that in engaging in electoral politics on the Democratic Party ballot line, DSA is necessarily acting as a small part of a larger coalition and it makes no sense to take positions of maximum opposition to all other elements of that coalition. Rather the right approach seems to be to win power within the coalition by delivering on standard good-governance stuff and on points of agreement between liberals and socialiats, so as to later be in a position to dictate terms to the coalition. Part of what this means in practice of course is not picking a fight to the death with the NYPD at the outset of Zohran's mayoral term. But on the other hand I'm not sure real conciliation with the NYPD is possible and Tisch could turn out to be quite the scorpion in Zohran's shoe.

At the end of the day I'm trusting Zohran for now, his (and his team's) instincts and judgment have gotten him into the mayor's office.

Aren't you further left of the DSA?
 
@Angst imo there is an interesting discussion to be had about how factions within DSA are processing Zohran's activities right now. It's interesting because I agree with DSA left on a lot of the substance of their criticisms of Zohran (especially retaining the police commissioner Tisch) but I am willing to give Zohran a lot of benefit of the doubt, and I also understand that in engaging in electoral politics on the Democratic Party ballot line, DSA is necessarily acting as a small part of a larger coalition and it makes no sense to take positions of maximum opposition to all other elements of that coalition. Rather the right approach seems to be to win power within the coalition by delivering on standard good-governance stuff and on points of agreement between liberals and socialiats, so as to later be in a position to dictate terms to the coalition. Part of what this means in practice of course is not picking a fight to the death with the NYPD at the outset of Zohran's mayoral term. But on the other hand I'm not sure real conciliation with the NYPD is possible and Tisch could turn out to be quite the scorpion in Zohran's shoe.

At the end of the day I'm trusting Zohran for now, his (and his team's) instincts and judgment have gotten him into the mayor's office.
i have a giga fever, i'll try to phrase as well as possible.

a reason i trust zohran's calls here is that contrary to most of the coverage of him, he's been a public servant for quite some time at this point. he did work in the weeds of the system. he understands that there's red tape and dumb s.

i believe there is a measurement of working with power that zohran just has to deal with. and for eg tisch it really doesn't block any of the policies; even at the... task force thing whose name i forget, the plan is to expand beyond that and basically hire more social workers. this is basic appeasement of the nypd in ways that they like (they will get to do their "heroics" even more, stuff they actually entered the force to work with, generally).

fighting the nypd is like a core goal on its own, something you basically need to do as a one policy candidate. there's no real time for it if we want results. they're too engrained in civic systems and their union is too powerful. i have many qualms about american policing, and the nypd is the worst of the worst, but i also want what you describe - winning power within the coalition by delivering on standard good-governance stuff. you need to spend the energy where it's most useful.

socialists built up a lot of america. lots of buildings and rights and goddamn sewer systems americans take for granted. it's background stuff, it's just there, part of the city. zohran needs to show that hey we're just going to rent control and make your lives visibly better. remind people of where this stuff came from. that it's actually not scary or strange. it's rather boring in a nice way. not do-nothing-democrat boring. but do-actual-stuff-you-can-grill-now boring.

so, nypd is that and tisch is that. i think it's just a hand that's dealt thing.

i'm more worried of the weirdass vote in congress denouncing socialism. that is... particular ominous, esp since it means nothing. i hope it's just a big wet fart that does nothing, a show of fireworks. i haven't even seen mamdani respond to it (and he shouldn't; he shouldn't dignify it; if he responds, it should be without dignification)
 
I've been happy that there have emerged a few prominent politicians (him and AOC) who, when the media try to tar them with the term "socialism," instead of flinching, just embrace it.

The word had been made utterly toxic. It's a bugbear, designed to shut down discussion before it can even start, through a heavily-cultivated, automatic, unthinking response: socialism = bad.

Therefore, one key thing that is needed to deprive it of that force is just nonchalance--just oneself not to accede to the argument-ending power it has been assigned.

Another tack I'd like to see such politicians adopt is just to say, "In a democracy, voters are empowered to enact whatever legislation they think will benefit them. If the vast majority of voters want to enact legislation that benefits the vast majority of people, that's perfectly democratic." Then go on, "Voters don't have to keep enacting legislation that benefits a small minority of the already wealthy. If rent controls benefit the vast majority of New Yorkers, at the expense of a small minority of landlords, it's okay for the vast majority of New Yorkers to support that for themselves. You wanna call that 'socialism'? Ok, I just call it members of a democracy voting for the things they think will benefit the vast majority of people instead of a small minority of people. Call it 'majority-ism' if you want. I'm not hung up on the label."

I say this because one central element of the socialism=bad ideologeme is "socialism is the antithesis of democracy," and this would be another strategy for depriving the term of that force.
 
I've been happy that there have emerged a few prominent politicians (him and AOC) who, when the media try to tar them with the term "socialism," instead of flinching, just embrace it.

The word had been made utterly toxic. It's a bugbear, designed to shut down discussion before it can even start, through a heavily-cultivated, automatic, unthinking response: socialism = bad.

Therefore, one key thing that is needed to deprive it of that force is just nonchalance--just oneself not to accede to the argument-ending power it has been assigned.

Another tack I'd like to see such politicians adopt is just to say, "In a democracy, voters are empowered to enact whatever legislation they think will benefit them. If the vast majority of voters want to enact legislation that benefits the vast majority of people, that's perfectly democratic." Then go on, "Voters don't have to keep enacting legislation that benefits a small minority of the already wealthy. If rent controls benefit the vast majority of New Yorkers, at the expense of a small minority of landlords, it's okay for the vast majority of New Yorkers to support that for themselves. You wanna call that 'socialism'? Ok, I just call it members of a democracy voting for the things they think will benefit the vast majority of people instead of a small minority of people. Call it 'majority-ism' if you want. I'm not hung up on the label."

I say this because one central element of the socialism=bad ideologeme is "socialism is the antithesis of democracy," and this would be another strategy for depriving the term of that force.
Note that Trump has already taken your advice and done exactly this with the term "fascism". When he had that meeting in the Oval office with Mamdani, the press assembled tried to bait the two of them by confronting Mamdani with the fact that he had called Trump a fascist in the past and challenging him whether he would still now call Trump a fascist to his face... Mamdani was clearly stumped by the question, as would be anyone in that situation, and was clearly about to start hemming and hawing, when Trump, completely unfazed, nonchalantly interjected, preemptively answering for Mamdani, saying essentially (paraphrasing) "Yes, yes he does (still think I'm a fascist) *to Mamdani* Just say yes, when they ask stuff like that, its just so much easier to just say yes and move on *laughs dismissively at the reporter*". I think it was a pretty brilliant move by Trump and completely defused/defanged the attack.

I'll see if I can find the video...
 
I saw it.
 
No, I didn't think about Trump at all. You're not wrong. He's effectively doing the same thing with the word "fascism": depriving it of its pejorative force by unanxiously embracing it.

That part of it is an established strategy. We're here, we're queer; get used to it. Blacks themselves using the n word.

My point was really more what I'd like to see as the next step for the likes of AOC and Mamdani: directly attacking the presupposition that "socialist" policies are automatically undemocratic. There are nations where socialist policies are imposed by authoritarian fiat. But anything that passes the legislative process in a democracy is ipso facto fully "democratic." Voters in a democracy can decide to vote themselves whatever they want. If those laws have a "socialist" effect, they are still fully democratic.

In fact, saying that makes me want to add something else to the messaging. So when confronted with "but that's socialist," just say, as above, "Voters in a democracy can vote themselves anything they want that they can get through the established legislative process." Then, "Voters in a democracy can vote to give rich people's money to poorer people." Say that flatly, emotionlessly, but also not smugly--just as a matter of (uncontestable) fact. Don't lower your eyes. Do pause long enough to let people process how radical that will sound (in an ideological climate presently dominated by plutocratic messaging). Then say, "I'm actually counting on democracy. I'm counting on the majority wanting policies that favor the majority." Now (assuming this is Mamdani saying this), "I think that's why people voted for me. I don't think they were voting for socialism, per se. I just think they thought my policy proposals would favor them for a change, rather than favoring the small minority who are already wealthy."

Subvert the antithesis between "widely-beneficial" and "democratic" that the right has established by pitting "democratic" against "socialist." Weave in and out of the word socialist, as though the word itself doesn't matter and all that does matter is policies that favor the majority versus ones that favor the already-rich.
 
Last edited:
No, I didn't think about Trump at all. You're not wrong. He's effectively doing the same thing with the word "fascism": depriving it of its pejorative force by unanxiously embracing it.

That part of it is an established strategy. We're here, we're queer; get used to it. Blacks themselves using the n word.

My point was really more what I'd like to see as the next step for the likes of AOC and Mamdani: directly attacking the presupposition that "socialist" policies are automatically undemocratic. There are nations where socialist policies are imposed by authoritarian fiat. But anything that passes the legislative process in a democracy is ipso facto fully "democratic." Voters in a democracy can decide to vote themselves whatever they want. If those laws have a "socialist" effect, they are still fully democratic.

In fact, saying that makes me want to add something else to the messaging. So when confronted with "but that's socialist," just say, as above, "Voters in a democracy can vote themselves anything they want that they can get through the established legislative process." Then, "Voters in a democracy can vote to give rich people's money to poorer people." Say that flatly, emotionlessly, but also not smugly--just as a matter of (uncontestable) fact. Don't lower your eyes. Do pause long enough to let people process how radical that will sound (in an ideological climate presently dominated by plutocratic messaging). Then say, "I'm actually counting on democracy. I'm counting on the majority wanting policies that favor the majority." Now (assuming this is Mamdani saying this), "I think that's why people voted for me. I don't think they were voting for socialism, per se. I just think they thought my policy proposals would favor them for a change, rather than favoring the small minority who are already wealthy."

Subvert the antithesis between "widely-beneficial" and "democratic" that the right has established by pitting "democratic" against "socialist." Weave in and out of the word socialist, as though the word itself doesn't matter and all that does matter is policies that favor the majority versus ones that favor the already-rich.
Again, team Trump is already adopting your suggested strategy, to great effect, to defend their fascist policies/practices and fascism. So I guess one of the things your take has me doing, in terms of thought exercises, is to consider the contrast between saying "what I am advocating is what the majority wants" versus saying "what I am advocating is what is morally right" or "what I am advocating is what is practically/subjectively/economically/empirically better for the majority of people"... You seem to be preferring an approach that focuses on the former, ie., stressing the will of the majority, rather than the well being of the majority.

The necessary end-point/guiding star of that approach would seem to be focusing on getting more people already on your "side" to turnout to vote, as opposed to convincing more people that your "side" is right and worthy of their vote. Another way of looking at it would be "The majority already supports our side, so our side is correct, by virtue of already being in the majority, we just need to motivate them to come out and vote" versus "Our side is morally/empirically correct, we just need to explain that and in so doing, convince/persuade the majority of current voters to see that so they vote for us instead of the opposition".

Coincidentally, I just today stumbled upon an episode of "Surrounded" (a Youtube show where one person sits in the middle and debates an assembly of people who oppose their view) where Liberal political streamer (Tim Miller) was debating a group of 20 younger (than he is) Conservatives. TL;DR My take is that in this particular episode, the featured debater didn't do as well (versus the opposition) as the featured debater usually does on this show. One of the reasons I mention this, is that the point the opposition started with was exactly the point that you raise here (ie., Trump won, twice, so democracy/the democratic process voted for his agenda). This point was raised pretty strongly and repeatedly by the opposition, and Miller's attempted rebuttal(s) (which was essentially, "b-but the rule of law!") s came off as pretty cliché overall, but also repetitive, tone-deaf, weak, flat and overall unimpressive.

As an aside, we (black people) don't really use the "n word" in the way you describe (redefining a word that was originally an insult into something positive). Its a slur and always was an insult and it's still unambiguously a slur and an insult, including when we (Black people) use it towards each other. The nuance is that as a member of the in-group the insult is directed towards, our use of the insult connects, unifies, equalizes us with other Black people because we are all in it (this inherently lower-societal class) together. The insult is a part of our shared identity, as a lower/oppressed/persecuted/denigrated/mistreated/underprivileged, etc., class of people, which is why its viewed differently for us use it, in contrast to white people, specifically. The "n word" is not, and has not been embraced by black people as a positive/neutral objective group-defining term the way "queer" and "gay" have been. The "power" in the "n-word" is precisely due to its irrevocably negative/denigrating property, shared in common by all black people. Ironically, the negative quality/character of the term is precisely the source of its romanticism. So the "n-word" does not belong in your particular analogy.
 
Last edited:
Right. Mamdani can say it only of his particular electorate, the city of NY. But it's still worth saying, there, with regard to whatever legislation he manages to get through.

I guess what I'm drawing on is the utter dismay that people on Fox have been thrown into by the fact that a "socialist" won a "democratic" election. Mamdani should keep hammering that pressure-point, and I think the way to do it is to keep publicly playing with the word, 1) to deprive it of the meaning "anti-democratic" that has been attached to it, and 2) to associate it with the idea "beneficial to the majority."

Keep in mind that Tim Miller is an anti-Trump Republican, communications director for Jeb! in his run, so he might not be the most effective spokesperson for some D principles.

Hopefully the midterms go our way, so then the message can be, "well the majority now doesn't approve of what you've actually done with the mandate you were given in 2024."
 
Last edited:
I don’t think this is “Trump embracing fascism” — I think it is an acknowledgement that campaigns are different from governing, by both Trump and Mamdani. If either one really thought they were an existential threat to the other, would they go meet and have such a cordial visit?
 
I don’t think this is “Trump embracing fascism” — I think it is an acknowledgement that campaigns are different from governing, by both Trump and Mamdani. If either one really thought they were an existential threat to the other, would they go meet and have such a cordial visit?
I'd see it as more of a move in a characteristics of realpolitik.
 
I'd see it as more of a move in a characteristics of realpolitik.
i think the realpolitik is pretty much what's going on. mamdani needs the federal government to chill the f out so he can govern. trump needs to look good instead of losing face.

both are incredibly opposed in goals. i don't believe trump's views are personally fascist, but i believe he uses the language and methods to get what he wants (which, fwiw, doesn't make him not-a-fascist; personal conviction of whether i should make coffee or not doesn't magically think away the fact that i just make coffee). zohran sits squarely within the american definition of socialist, the horror. it's just that while both share national territory and institutions, their jurisdictions are essentially different. at least, they should be. trump rounding up people in california isn't directly connected to mamdani wanting to build houses in new york, even if they're structurally connected (and very much so in the latter case)
 
american definition of socialist
美國特色社會主義, “socialism with American characteristics” (yes, Classical Chinese. I can’t write simplified.)

I think that can’t be overstated that the definition within those who apply it to themselves fall into the types of socialism someone like I am actually opposed—the Gus Hall types, state-owned shoe factories, waiting in line on the day they have meat for two hours to my exchange ration coupons.

The pejorative application, I’d advise against my fellow rightists using it because Mamdani is not the Brezhnev-in-waiting that we would actually be afraid of.
 
Aren't police supposed to cooperate with International law regardless of what level they're at?

Also, what's wrong with saying that some protestors went to far, but that the group they are protesting is worthy of criticism?
well to begin with, Mamdani says that he is unwilling to cooperate with the feds regarding national laws concerning immigration, so it'd be a bit hypocritical for him to think he could cooperate with some international law also regarding immigration.

And more to that point: what international law is he talking about? He ought to point to it. I know the 4th Geneva Convention makes reference to forced transfer of persons to and from occupied territories, but that is a government action. That is what Putin did/is doing in Ukraine with children there. This synagogue was helping private individuals to move who wanted to. I mean if you want to argue that this was all somehow in aid of furthering Israeli government actions, like I said, this is basically no different any other activity the B.D.S. movement objects to, and that there really is no safe harbor for anyone giving sustenance to Israel...
 
Last edited:
This synagogue was helping private individuals to move who wanted to.

Wrong as usual. I don't understand why you post stuff when you just have no idea what you're talking about. The whole West Bank settlement enterprise is only viable due to huge government subsidies.
 
Wrong as usual. I don't understand why you post stuff when you just have no idea what you're talking about. The whole West Bank settlement enterprise is only viable due to huge government subsidies.

I'm about at 10-12 posts on this same subject by now, and I've yet to be shown how the synagogue or its sponsored group is the cause of any of that despite your repeatedly roping the larger Israeli-Palestine conflict into this as if it means something.

Nefesh B’Nefesh does not "settle" anyone; it does not make room for anyone forcibly or otherwise; they are giving out information which would help someone to settle in Israel. Info which could be just as likely be gathered from other sources that one might care to research on his own time.

Your position, as well as these protestors, is pretty much that no one should be allowed to do that. That in all practical terms Jews should not have that opportunity. A bloke so much as chatting with one of them about a nice house that'd be good for them over there...? "Shut 'em down." A point of view that, had it been applied to any other demographic, would be labeled as discrimination.

...

some news, and which IS the direct result of this protest, we now have a response from within the NY legislature:


A group of New York state lawmakers introduced a bill Wednesday to ban demonstrations outside of houses of worship and reproductive health care clinics, days after a pro-Palestinian demonstration outside a prominent Manhattan synagogue led to criticism of Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani’s response.


The bill would amend New York’s existing buffer zone rules to create a specific ban against demonstrations taking place within 25 feet of the entrance to a house of worship or clinic. The limit would also extend to parking lots, other entrances and driveways.


State Assemblyman Micah Lasher, a Democrat who represents parts of Manhattan’s Upper West Side, told CNN he introduced the legislation partly in response to the incident outside the Park East Synagogue last month.
 
Last edited:
Nefesh B’Nefesh does not "settle" anyone; it does not make room for anyone forcibly or otherwise; they are giving out information which would help someone to settle in Israel. Info which could be just as likely be gathered from other sources that one might care to research on his own time.

I don't think "it's fine to give people information on how to do crimes because they can get the information elsewhere anyway" is really a great argument. The point here, which you're continuously refusing to get, is that they're specifically telling people to go settle in the West Bank, which means they're telling people to go violently displace the current inhabitants, whether they're framing it in that way or not.
 
Back
Top Bottom