Zone of Control

[searcheagle]

The concept of Zone of control has been around in the civ series for serveral editions of civ (Civ II and CIV III) but this is a new concept.

Zone of control would have:
1. attack every unit that comes within its range in the appropriate zone (air, land, sea, undersea)
2. It forms an umbrella of coverage for units operating near it but not on the same square.
3. More effective defensive positioning because you could not slip through a crack in the opositions defensive wall
4. the feeling of more "real-time" less static combat
5. Units would be able to "patrol" certain areas of the map, allowing a good defense against an amphibous landing.
6. *Air units would only be interceptable by ground units if the air unit attacks, paradrops, inserts or retrives via helicopter. Basically, the aircraft has to come down from cruising hieght to within striking distance of the ground.
7. Fighters could be given this ability to patrol the air space to prevent entrance by enemy aircraft.
8. Fortress would also have this ability. They would fire would attack adjacent forces.

Zone of control in my idea would start with the idea that the zone of control would be limited to various types of units, giving them unique powers, which in turn adds more strategy to the game.

The zones of control could be 1 or more squares in radius from the unit with the ZOC flag. This allows various unit strength.

A radius of 1 would allow it attack any unit a corresponding square.

Here are some examples of units:
1. Bombardment- environment- all land or sea intrusions, with all more recent artillery having a longer range (2 or 3 squares)
2. Aegis-environment-land, sea, sub, or air intrusion. This would give it an aerial umbrella over units that surround it. (2 squares)
3. AAAs and SAMs- Air intrusions*-this would attack any air unit which would be attacking the area.
4. Fighters-Air intrusions-prevention air invaision (4 or so squares)
5. Fortress-Ground and sea-(1? square) prevent forces from moving.

I believe this will be a good adjustment to the combat part of civ.

 

[rhialto]

I'd like to see no zoc at all for sea/air units. It doesn't make sense in those environments. For land units, I'd like civ2 style zoc, with some modifications.

Each unit has a 'zoc' rating. This is based on an abstraction of the unit's range and movement. So all melee infantry units would be 1, archer 2, and riflemen 3.

A unit exerts a zoc against any unit with an equal or lower zoc rating.

----

For naval warfare, I want to see ships generally have much larger bombardment ranges, with separate land and sea bombardment ranges.

On your turn, each time you move into a tile covered by a hostile unit's bombardment range, he gets a single attack (max 1 hp damage) against you. Each hostile unit can make as many such attacks on your turn as it has "rate of fire" points. Once aegis cruisers with missile bombardment becomes available, this can rapidly become lethal.

Something similar to sea could probably work for air too.

 

[GoodGame]

air/sea units exert a zone of control by virtue of their speed, detection abilities, and the speed of their weapons.

A supersonic jet armed with supersonic weapons and able to detect for many KMs very much has a ZOC as long as it's in supply.

Sea units pre-radar would probably not have a reliable ZOC (a random one instead). Even at WW2 radar, it'd be kind of random.
No clue what the modern state is, but given supersonic weapons on a naval craft, with intelligent weapons---they probably have some kind of dependable ZOC.

 

[yoshi]

This thread only got 2 replies!?

@searcheagle: thought of something like that only took my inspiration from RTS where units have stances (e.g. Aggressive, Defensive).

Civ2 had the advantage that it actually prevented untis from passing your units but the disadvantage that it affected a rival's units during peacetime.

I would go with:

- Aggressive Stance: unit attacks any adjacent enemy unit.
- Defensive Stance: unit withdraws if losing when attacked; does not attack.
- Fortify: same as Civ3; does not attack or withdraw.

- Artillery units: ZoC functions same as Civ3.

- Air units: New 'Patrol' Mission means air unit will attack any enemy unit that enters targeted area.

AEGIS cover: provides defenisive bonus to units like Radar in Civ3.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

ZoC should also block hostile trade routes so that effective blockades can be carried out.

 

[yoshi]

Make trade routes visible first though.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, my A$0.02c worth (or US$0.0156c at current exchange rates !)

1) An ordinary unit (fortified or not) exerts a Civ3 style ZoC based on the principles put forward by Rhialto. In addition, these units also have a % chance of TEMPORARILY disrupting any VISIBLE enemy trade routes or Supply Lines-for that turn-if they are within the units ZoC range.

2) If a unit is fortified in a fortress or naval base, then it gains the benefits of a Civ2 style ZoC, again based on principles similar to those put forward by Rhialto. In addition, they have a % chance to PERMANENTLY disrupt any VISIBLE enemy trade routes or supply lines within the range of their ZoC (in tiles).

3) Air units get their standard 'air-superiority' range. If a unit is set to 'air-superiority', then any unit which enters that range-ground, air or naval, can be intercepted/attacked by that air unit(s). In addition, any VISIBLE enemy trade routes or supply lines which come within 'range' of an air unit in air-superiority mode have a % chance of being disrupted each turn.

What this might mean is that many enemy units will no longer have a free run in enemy territory, without the annoyance of automatic ZoC a la Civ2. It will also make fortresses, airbases and naval bases key choke points against enemy invasions-forcing said enemy to focus the bulk of their initial forces towards capturing/destroying them. This is important to me as it would further the goal of moving the focus of combat AWAY from cities and more towards these key logistic points instead. Also, as was stated previously, it would help to make trade embargoes a great deal more effective than is currently the case-assuming you can see the trade route in question!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[yoshi]

Again with the chance thing Aussie?

That's what makes Civ3's ZoC really suck: it doesn't happen every time a unit enters an adjacent square from an adjacent square.

In Civ3 Fortresses give all units within ZoC.

Granted, Civ2's system got the job done (i.e. prevent enemy units from passing your units without a fight-which is indispensable in TBS) but would expect somehting a little more sophisticated form Civ4.

That's why I suggested actually having the unit automatically attack (with the option of having the unit retreat if attacked--if attaked by unit of equal or less movement--or simply stand it's ground, that is no ZoC).

Civ3 already uses part of this in the retreat mechanism (that could also use some work BTW).

 

[dh_epic]

I've got mixed feelings on this one. I wasn't a fan of Civ 2's zone of control, but it did prevent people from making a bee-line for the enemy's cities. Civ 3 was somehow lacking in strategy -- suddenly the emphasis became who could build a larger army. Very little emphasis on troop arrangement.

 

[sir_schwick]

Here's options ZoC give you:

1) Flank Attack - You attack the offending unit with x2 attack value.(requires MP)
2) Delaying Action - You attack and retreat 100% whenever you unit loses an HP.(requires MP)
3) Aggravated Fire - Your troops allow the offenders to pass, but get 2 free shots bombardment.
4) Concentrated Fire - Your troops get 4 shots of bombardment, if they wound on any the attackers are pinned down.(Requires MP)

 

[yoshi]

@dh_epic: Yes, Civ3's lack of unit strategy is a big downside: 'free shots' do not effectively impose ZoC.

To many options sir_schwick. Aggravated/concentrated fire would conflict with the Artillery role. Delaying action is like the Defensive Stance I suggested earlier.

The one that has promise is the Flank Attack but that would fall under combat modifiers and not ZoC if it's just an attack bonus for faster units. (That said, the CIv4 Combat Modifiers thread I opened has been untouched for a long time now.)

CtP2 uses a flanking system where fast units can attack with impunity as log as there are other units covering the main attack (i.e. slow units).

I would like to see flanking related to ZoC somehow but I can't think how without resorting to a level of complexity inappropriate to Civ.

 

[sir_schwick]

THese options only come up whenever an opposing force moves within the ZoC(hotkeys would be the most appropriate solution).

Concentrated Fire would be an option avaliable only to Arty units.

Aggravated fire is what units already have, except its weaker and less predictable in Civ 3. If its a tactical certainty, then you can plan forward defenses that force enemies to wipe them out or take casualties.

 

[yoshi]

Okay, I see. You're missing an automated attack feature then. This is essential IMO (non-arty ground units w/attack factor do this).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, not to blow my own trumpet , but I reckon that a combination of my model and Sir Schwicks would work REALLY well !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rhialto]

I'm glad to see that you adopted the core feature of my zoc idea where advanced units can ignore the zoc from more primitive units. It always bugged me that a phalanx was as effective in exerting a zoc as a tank.

 

[searcheagle]

I'd like to see no zoc at all for sea/air units. It doesn't make sense in those environments.

Sure it does. Try to dock your ship next to an aircraft carrier. You won't get close- they have huge Zone's of Control. And aircraft patrols serve as their zone of control.

For land units, I'd like civ2 style zoc, with some modifications.

For this do you mean you can not get pass by units? I think my idea provides a better solution to the problem. If they have a unit on a mountain, I think I should be able to try to sneak by it or fight it in the valley.

Each unit has a 'zoc' rating. This is based on an abstraction of the unit's range and movement. So all melee infantry units would be 1, archer 2, and riflemen 3.

Agreed.

A unit exerts a zoc against any unit with an equal or lower zoc rating.

I disagree. They should attempt to save the homeland, if they are put on ZOC, reguardless of the attacking strength.

----

For naval warfare, I want to see ships generally have much larger bombardment ranges, with separate land and sea bombardment ranges.

On your turn, each time you move into a tile covered by a hostile unit's bombardment range, he gets a single attack (max 1 hp damage) against you. Each hostile unit can make as many such attacks on your turn as it has "rate of fire" points. Once aegis cruisers with missile bombardment becomes available, this can rapidly become lethal.

Something similar to sea could probably work for air too.

I see the same idea that I proposed for land working for sea and air as well. It keeps inferring that there are reaction moves built into many units turns.

 

[rhialto]

Stupid thing won't copy quotes into the quote reply function

I'd like to see no zoc at all for sea/air units. It doesn't make sense in those environments.

Sure it does. Try to dock your ship next to an aircraft carrier. You won't get close- they have huge Zone's of Control. And aircraft patrols serve as their zone of control.

ok, fair enough for aircraft carriers. But just about no naval unit prior to radar could hope to enforce a zoc, due to lack of range, detection ability, and speed. Given that a properly loaded carrier is so dangerous anyway (or sould be), it seems simpler to not make a rule specially for a handful of units that would rule anyway.

In any case, I still maintain that controlling teh area to the extent that the enemy either run around or directly assault does not apply to naval unitş even carriers. I have more to say about this at the end.

For this do you mean you can not get pass by units? I think my idea provides a better solution to the problem. If they have a unit on a mountain, I think I should be able to try to sneak by it or fight it in the valley.

Yes, I think zoc should mean you cannot get past enemy units, civ2 style. Some extra features of zoc:

1 - It should interfere with trade toutes in some way.
2 - It blocks city workers. Citizens cannot work on the tile an enemy unit is on, or any of the tiles adjacent to him.

I disagree. They should attempt to save the homeland, if they are put on ZOC, reguardless of the attacking strength.

True, any set of soldiers would attempt to save the homeland. But the zoc rating was meant to highlight the fact that a phalanx cannot effectively control ground if cavalry want to get past. they may be good soldiers, but they aren't crazy. The zoc rating rflects the idea that if the superior force doesn't want to engage, the weaker force lacks the ability to force them to fight. They can still do so on their turn of course.

----

I see the same idea that I proposed for land working for sea and air as well. It keeps inferring that there are reaction moves built into many units turns.

I read your idea, and it is almost exactly teh same as my "reactive bombardment" model I have, which I feel should also be included in the game. A unit with a large bombardment range can easily overwhelm any enemy with reactive fire before he even comes close, espcially if you stack a few together. This is something that I feel most ships should have.

 

[searcheagle]

We are thinking along similar lines. I think your reactive bombardment have helped inspire my idea. I think our ideas are only a matter of scope.

ok, fair enough for aircraft carriers. But just about no naval unit prior to radar could hope to enforce a zoc, due to lack of range, detection ability, and speed. Given that a properly loaded carrier is so dangerous anyway (or sould be), it seems simpler to not make a rule specially for a handful of units that would rule anyway.

In any case, I still maintain that controlling teh area to the extent that the enemy either run around or directly assault does not apply to naval unitş even carriers. I have more to say about this at the end.

I older, pre Radar Ships, as have no ZOC. These could not effectively control anything. That is where the different ZOC scales come in. Modern ships could control more territory.

Yes, I think zoc should mean you cannot get past enemy units, civ2 style. Some extra features of zoc:

1 - It should interfere with trade toutes in some way.
2 - It blocks city workers. Citizens cannot work on the tile an enemy unit is on, or any of the tiles adjacent to him.

I'll agree with you in times of peace, with civs that do not have an RoP. However, at times of war, I think the battle should take place.

True, any set of soldiers would attempt to save the homeland. But the zoc rating was meant to highlight the fact that a phalanx cannot effectively control ground if cavalry want to get past. they may be good soldiers, but they aren't crazy. The zoc rating rflects the idea that if the superior force doesn't want to engage, the weaker force lacks the ability to force them to fight. They can still do so on their turn of course.

I can see your point with an obsolete unit but I don't want a unit not to react because it is slightly weaker. IE TOW Inf in the mountains vs Tank.

 

[rhialto]

I can see your point with an obsolete unit but I don't want a unit not to react because it is slightly weaker. IE TOW Inf in the mountains vs Tank.

This would be a matter of setting the zoc scores appropriately so that crazy situations don't happen. In the above case, both units might be given the same zoc scores.

Thought: units whose principle role is ambush would have generally higher zoc ratings than their range/speed would imply. On the opposite end, units whose primary function is emplacment and bombardment won't have such high zoc ratings. Artilelry may have decent reactive fire, but they aren't too good at forcing an unwanted close engagement.

Now, some sample zoc ratings scores.

any melee infantry unit - 1
archers, crossbows (primitive missile) - 2
musketeers, riflemen (slow CPR weapons) - 3
semi-automatic weapons (fast CPR weapons) - 4
large bore cannon (boom) - 5

(multiple modifers can apply)
cavalry - +1
motorized - +2
'heavy weapons infantry' - +2 (machine gunner, bazooka, TOW)
'guerilla' role - +1 (guerillas, partisans)
'artillery' role - -1

Some units may have a low zoc rating, reflecting that they cannot block others, but also have a "ignores zoc" flag, to reflect superior infiltration abilities. This would apply to special forces and commando style units.

Note that the above numbers are guidelines, and individual units may vary from what that generates. Varying the stats may also be a feature for unique units.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, Rhialto, in principle I think these are GREAT ideas. As I said in my original post, though, I think Civ2 style ZoC should only apply in the case of a fortified unit-and probably then only if said unit is in a fortress (though some special units might get it even outside a fortress)-otherwise they should get a GREATLY ENHANCED Civ3 style ZoC, a la Sir_Schwick's suggestions. Actually, do you think that units in fortresses and/or naval bases should get a bonus to their base ZoC numbers? After all, the historical importance of fortresses was to prevent the movement of 'enemy forces' within your territory (especially areas under 'pacification' !)
Anyway though, aside from this one point, I think that you, me, Sir_Schwick and Searcheagle are ALL pretty much on the same page with this one !