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Zone of Control

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by blindside, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. NKVD

    NKVD Cossack

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    I totally disagree...its real and pure realism that armies avoid yours...in war armies always exploit the gap between the ennemy lines. i'm still waiting for civilization or another game to take into account flanking, pincers and encirclement movements like military genius like Napoleon and Von Manstein was able to accomplish... the object of war is to encircle the opponent in pincher moves to cut them off from their supply roads and their supply depots...once armies are too away from their supply (borders) they should began to get lower hit points and/or never get to heal ...this way there would be real battle fronts stretch with strong points rather than the stacking of units because they could be encircled and/or their supply roads cut off...plus you've get no bonus for attacking a stack from behind or from their flank (like in Rome Total War).

    In real life a stack encircled by far a less numerous count of units can beat it up real bad...the main reason why german went so far in Russia being outnumbered 2 to 1 and even 5 to 1 in some battles untill hitler decided to not withdraw...at stalingrad...
     
  2. DaveDash

    DaveDash Chieftain

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    This is not realistic.

    In real life, if someone was trying to move through an exposed gap, you'd engage them to protect your flank.

    That's why turn based games HAVE zone of control.

    It always annoyed me in civ3 how you couldnt make a naval blockaid, and this is the same. Its annoying, unrealistic, and another feature I would have expected from the 4th version of the series.
     
  3. LostKing

    LostKing Chieftain

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    The units have zone of control over the entire tile. That's probably much to large an area. There are many chokepoints that are only 2 or 3 tiles.
     
  4. Ranos

    Ranos King

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    Ummmm.. actually you could make a naval blockade. You had to have one ship in every tile that could be used and you would then be blockading a city.
     
  5. DaveDash

    DaveDash Chieftain

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    You had to have TWO rows of ships yes, which ended up being hugely ineffecient.

    The game needs proper ZoC rules like almost every other TBS game out there. It's in its 4th generation now, and feature-wise it's lacking.
     
  6. Ranos

    Ranos King

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    I only needed one row of ships when blockading a city (as in preventing resources from getting to the city). If you are talking about preventing the city from working all of the water tiles, then you had to have one for every tile in the city radius.

    As far as ZOC, there should be some form other than the Civ2 version.
     
  7. DaveDash

    DaveDash Chieftain

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    I never mentioned blocking a city. Just generic Naval blockaids.

    For example, cutting off the shallow sea tiles or a narrow pass of water required two rows of ships, otherwise the enemy ships could 'slip through' the diagonals due to no ZoC.
     
  8. NKVD

    NKVD Cossack

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    exacty! so the guy just have to protect his flanks by putting a unit forming a wall of units ( a battlefront) which is possible now with Civ 4 since the tiles are squares...ZOC are stupid and unrealistic if there is a one tile gap between two units which means almost like 300 km on a medium map or even more...I find it ridiculous if you couldnt go through with your cavalry if you breakthrough pikemen ! and running havoc behind ennemy lines...

    you need to read a book on the Yom Kippur War of 1973...even if its a bit extreme for exemple but the israelians got into a very small breach to cut off the back of Egypt's army. in less than a day the israel flag was raised behind them so they surrendered...
    Austerlitz, Ardennes, Kiev, Kharkov....all perfect exemple.

    I agree that in the pre-medieval times the game shouldnt change since the use of calvalry was not really in use until the mongols showed the rùs then the world what mobility could do. Units stacking is so UNrealistic...unless they have great mobility which is used to breakthrough...lol
     
  9. Ranos

    Ranos King

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    That depended on the orientation of the gap. If it was north-south or east-west then yes. If it was oriented 45% from that, then you only needed one row. All four civs use the same style when it comes to the tiles. They just put them in different orientations. Civ and Civ4 use them as squares while Civ2 and Civ3 use them as diamonds.

    You will still face the same problem in Civ4 just on the diagonals instead of the vertical/horizontal.

    ZOCs that prevent units from moving past at all are far too exploitable.
     
  10. trotskylite

    trotskylite Warlord

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    x-com for example
     
  11. screwtype

    screwtype Warlord

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    Yes, the whole idea of a ZOC is that it compensates for the turn based model. In real life, armies don't take turns to move, they move simultaneously, and respond to each other's moves.

    ZOC is a way of giving the non-moving side a limited ability to "respond" to moves made by the other side in its own turn.

    And in any case a ZOC does not prevent you from attacking into the rear. You just have to blow up the unit whose ZOC is in the way first, and create the gap. And that of course is what in real life one side usually has to do before it can drive into the opponent's rear.
     
  12. DaveDash

    DaveDash Chieftain

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    I recall that during that time, Israeli forces were paradropped behind Egyptian lines. My memory of that is hazy however.

    We're not talking about small forces here, we're talking about armies at least the size of a division. You'd have to punch a hole THROUGH a gap to exploit it, not mosey on half your army around the flank of an opposing army while it sits there and can't do anything because it's not 'his turn'.

    The whole concept is based on the fact the game is turned based. That means that while the other person is having their turn, you cannot react. This is highly unrealistic to start with, which is why you implement zone of control in such a way that Rome Total War has implemented it.

    I might add in a few of those examples you've given that are 'perfect' examples - you're incorrect.

    Ardennes was at a point where the U.S. line was stretched very thin, for example. In a Civ4 ZoC game, this would be at a point where there is a gap between the ZoC.

    [EDIT] exactly what Screwtype said.
     
  13. NKVD

    NKVD Cossack

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    what should be done is having a way bigger military with more units of less force thus faciliting the creattion of a long line of units...with civ you just create a stack of 10 cavalry with maybe 2-3 catapult and your are good to conquer another civ if you backstab them. That why I love scenarios, you start with plenty of units.

    I agree with your orientation of the gap but most of my wars are either vertical or horizontal thrusts but civ 4

    yep there should be a zoc of 0 so that units cannot pass through two units one by the other one...but they should when there is a one tile gap between which you couldnt in civ 2 or get injured in civ 3 if the units you were passing by had a greater mobility...

    What I would like to mod is a supply road ...if your army would have a line behind them going to the nearest city (like the go to line) indicating the supply road it would be fantastic. Real armies needs to left some battalions to the back to protect the supply.
     
  14. NKVD

    NKVD Cossack

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    small battalions or big armies use the same tactics to destroy the other one.

    I know its turned based! Still the game would be way better if it would use fronts instead of stacking. when the germans attacked Kiev-Smolensk and breaked-through the Red Army it took 2 days to the soviet to get the order of withdrawal by then they were already encircled and lost 400,000 prisoners and 3,300 tanks so dont tell me that in an attack the defensive side react as quickly as the attacker. and still they use wedge formation to breakthrough which is though for the defensive side to know where will be the main attacking force, like in the Ardennes where the french thought it would attack on the maginot line. I have yet read a book on that matter but it is ordered since a month...cant wait reading that one

    if for you THE Ardennes battle put in battle US troops I dont talk about the USA ''freeing'' france in 1944 when 90% of the germans divisions were on the east battlefront fightning the russian
     
  15. NKVD

    NKVD Cossack

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    I agree but ZOC or not you have to blow up a unit or couple of them to pass through...its still realistic to not have ZOC, its just that its not interesting fightning on the borders in civ4 or putting all our units on our border...civilization encourage a lot city garrisons so all the units are always left in cities.

    anyway Rome total war is the closest to achieve that but I got tired of the same map and same campaign after 5 games...and my computer is not really fast.
     
  16. screwtype

    screwtype Warlord

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    Personally I have mixed feeling about ZOC for Civ4 because the units already have such a modest movement rating. But I think it would probably add a little something to the gameplay anyhow.

    A ZOC wouldn't matter so much if the game was based on a hexagonal grid, but with a square grid, you need an extra unit in the line for every time the line changes direction, for the diagonal tile, and that can soon add up to a lot of extra units.

    Anyhow what I am thinking of doing is modding the game to give ALL units a much greater movement factor, say two MP's for every early foot unit and three for early horse units, all the way up to perhaps six MP's for modern tanks and mech. Then a ZOC would make a lot more sense. Effectively you'd be turning the game into a more conventional board wargame.

    But whether I ever actually get around to doing this is another question...
     
  17. Lord Chambers

    Lord Chambers Emperor

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    I agree that it seems like a step backwards for Civ4 to just NOT have a feature in Civ3. I'd LOVE for an explaination as to why.
     
  18. JadeDragon87

    JadeDragon87 Chieftain

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    I like the ZoC. If units passes next to it it should have a chance to be hurt.
    I think that in WW2 the germans used to place some men with some MG42 on strategical places. They could kill small compagnies or just slow down the enemy. (correct me if I'm wrong)
    I think it could be a bit like that in civ4.
     
  19. Tarkeel

    Tarkeel Imperial

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    IMHO, the lack of a ZoC just forces you to adopt mobile warfare. A fixed line of defense IS outdated in the modern times, and is easily compensated for by having a mobile defensive force that can engage the enemy after it has broken through.

    Napoleon is supposed to have asked one of his generals for a plan to defend the French border. The plan he got was an even spacing of men along the border, to which Napolean asked it this plan was to stop an invasion, or smugglers?

    This isn't a military simulator though, so don't expect it to behave like one.
     
  20. smphang

    smphang Chieftain

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    all units shouldnt have zone of control, as adjacent square may represent millions of miles difference as someone points out...

    but fort should have some form of zone of control. what i recommend is that any enemy unit when go near a fort will be forced to stop regardless of how many movement point they have left. the next turn however, they are free to travel along. in other words, unless you have a full movement point when near a fort, you cannot move. :p

    this will make fort placement much more interesting and introduce some strategy to the game too.
     

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