Zulu Problem (Not quite what you think)

[Tsar NicholasII]

Which is why I said this:



With an extra emphasis on 'tradition' as the reason why they are the way they are in Civ [See: Gandhi, nukes]

But in other games he was more like Monty in that he could be beaten back. Now he is an unstoppable zerg. No unit in the Medieval or Renaissance can stop him.

 

[seancolorado]

But in other games he was more like Monty in that he could be beaten back. Now he is an unstoppable zerg. No unit in the Medieval or Renaissance can stop him.

Perhaps no single unit can hold a candle to his Ikanda-powered Impis, but you can certainly stop him

 

[Tsar NicholasII]

Perhaps no single unit can hold a candle to his Ikanda-powered Impis, but you can certainly stop him

Less you have an army of Riflemen in the Medieval era, you can't

 

[seancolorado]

Less you have an army of Riflemen in the Medieval era, you can't

Must have been dreaming then when I prevented him from taking any of my cities the other day using Musketmen (upgraded from Kris Swordsman), Crossbowmen, Frigates and city bombardment

 

[Tsar NicholasII]

Must have been dreaming then when I prevented him from taking any of my cities the other day using Musketmen (upgraded from Kris Swordsman), Crossbowmen, Frigates and city bombardment

I was talking about if a human player has him. I conquered France even with his Chateaux and Musketeers.

 

[Morthis]

Just to be clear, the flanking bonuses from Buffalo promotions are added then multiplied, not just a straight addition (which would be insanely overpowered). So at 3 promotions, you have 17.5% flanking instead of 10%, not 85%.

 

[hazman79]

Hi all.
I've been playing Brave New World the past few days as has one of my friends. At a couple of points he elected to try out the Zulu (if it matters, Huge, Continents, Prince).

What we both have come to a consensus on is the Zulu's Ikanda promotions are simply too good, and in some ways, stupidly so. When the Ikanda's effects were only vaguely known, we both assumed, based on Shaka's history, that the Ikanda would either randomly assign (or allow you to choose) one of a handful of unique promotions which you could then implement strategically, again, just like the real Shaka, with certain units filling certain roles. For us, this made the Zulu an exciting thought.

The unfortunate reality is that when spawned from a City containing an Ikanda, Zulu melee units, in the hands of a player at least, soon become a massive death machine. Of course the Zulus are massive warmongers but consider this and compare it to other warmongers. For those who don't know, the Ikanda promotions are:

Buffalo Chest (+10% strength Combat Strength when fighting in OPEN Terrain. (NO Hills, Forest or Jungle). Flank attack bonus increased by 25%. +10% Defense against all Ranged Attacks.)

Buffalo Horns (+1 Movement. Flank attack bonus increased by 25%. +10% Defense against all Ranged Attacks.)

Buffalo Loins (+10% strength Combat Strength. Flank attack bonus increased by 25%. +10% Defense against all Ranged Attacks.)

The way it works now, if I recall correctly, is once spawning from an Ikanda, a Unit may select the first one and can receive the second two as upgrades. Again, for my friend and I, it's simply not as fun as we thought. These promotions aren't terribly diverse as it is and there's no strategy. Just use your massive kill machines to overpower everyone for a good, solid while. It is also worth noting that, while we're not sure about muskets or actual gunpowder units, we've seen Impi upgrade to Lancers and retain the promotions.

TL;DR - The Zulu's Ikanda is VERY powerful, to the point where they're just not interesting to play as. My friend and I hoped that it would allow the selection of one of several unique promotions to be applied in strategic ways, but instead they turn melee units into raging death, in a way that lasts long enough to certainly be called overpowered in the hands of a player.

Anyone else agree? Disagree? Can anyone provide further info on how far the Ikanda promotions carry over? we don't won't to be downers and love the expansion overall, but we were really hoping for something more in the Zulu.

You're playing on Prince

 

[Gucumatz]

Well to be fair people have complained about them in NQ too and we play on immortal constantly against other human players . Assyria and the Zulu are sort of broken with their units

 

[Nicasen]

They are very strong but frankly I'm fine with them remaining as they are just because I can finally justify a melee military instead of having to be completely saturated with ranged attackers.

 

[Gucumatz]

Although technically part of their power comes from range

 

[kikai93]

Zulu are not everything this thread seems to be saying they are. Yes, they are powerful and I think that's a good thing. No they are not OP. For instance, four days ago I'm playing multiplayer on Standard, Immortal, Legendary Start settings Pangaea map. I select Greece (in my opinion one of the better vanilla civs) and who spawns next to me? The Zulu. They attacked early with a sizable army (as you would expect). I beat back their Ikanda'd spearmen with my Hoplites and Archers using a chokepoint to my advantage. I beat back their Ikanda'd Impi "Hoard o' Death" using the same choke and by surrounding my one city (yes, I was doing a self-imposed one city challenge going for a diplomatic victory) by surrounding my capital with Trebuchet in one layer with Pikemen surrounding them. At that point, the Mongols rolled up on them from the other side of their empire and the mighty Keshik hoard crushed the Zulu handily. Ghandi actually won that game, cultural victory. Yes, really. His second city (from which he built all of his troops) was founded next to the Fountain of Youth and he stacked medic promotions, etc to make nearly unkillable defenders using a slight tech advantage. Nerf Fountain of Youth.

I've also tried playing the Zulu myself. They are a strong military civilization, but you do have to tailor your strategy for your opponents and several other civs present unique challenges for them. You can't just build an Impi hoard and crush anything. I've never found them to present an "iWin" button against human opponents. Given that a military victory against the AI is ridiculously easy playing almost ANY civ, I don't see their performance vs. the AI as an important factor.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Wait... they can get all 3 of these promotions on a single unit? +75% flanking bonus alone is ridiculous and +1 movement on top of that... and 1/3 dmg from ranged attacks and 20% more CS? What the...? You're kidding me right? Who needs GDRs when you can have (Ikanda)-Impi?

That's what I was expecting, but...

Just to be clear, the flanking bonuses from Buffalo promotions are added then multiplied, not just a straight addition (which would be insanely overpowered). So at 3 promotions, you have 17.5% flanking instead of 10%, not 85%.

 

[redwings1340]

The zulu are incredibly strong, but I think they are countered by the fact that early warmongering has become less powerful. Sure, impi can get really incredible bonuses, but all your production of impi are going to put you behind scientifically, and eventually your offensive is going to be stopped. Happiness also limits the amount of conquest you can easily do. When I played as the zulu, I was conquering cities left and right, but I never felt comfortable scientifically or happiness wise until I got ideologies.

I think the other vanilla warmongering civs need a buff to improve the viability of selective early game warmongering, because I still feel better when I play as a less militaristic civilization.

 

[Yzman]

Most people seem to forget that the majority of Shaka's benefit comes from Melee units. The last Melee unit is the longswordsman.

And before someone says it, no, gunpowders units and other units that attack from 1 range are not considered melee units. The game has 2 different definitions of melee. In shaka's case it refers to units that fight "hand to hand"

 

[Tachii]

3 movement is pretty damn good. I mean, Denmark's UU only lasts them on the unit, I think? It might require a nerf.

And the Impis are great target bait as long as your siege units don't get oneshotted.

 

[redwings1340]

Most people seem to forget that the majority of Shaka's benefit comes from Melee units. The last Melee unit is the longswordsman.

And before someone says it, no, gunpowders units and other units that attack from 1 range are not considered melee units. The game has 2 different definitions of melee. In shaka's case it refers to units that fight "hand to hand"

Impi do upgrade in to riflemen though, and they keep their promotions when they do this. If you can keep your remaining impi alive when you reach rifles, those units become very precious and awesome.

 

[Arachnofiend]

The zulu are incredibly strong, but I think they are countered by the fact that early warmongering has become less powerful. Sure, impi can get really incredible bonuses, but all your production of impi are going to put you behind scientifically, and eventually your offensive is going to be stopped. Happiness also limits the amount of conquest you can easily do. When I played as the zulu, I was conquering cities left and right, but I never felt comfortable scientifically or happiness wise until I got ideologies.

I think the other vanilla warmongering civs need a buff to improve the viability of selective early game warmongering, because I still feel better when I play as a less militaristic civilization.

I disagree. The fact that early warmongering is weaker actually helps the Zulu; the main problem with it is lack of the necessary gold to fund an army, which is a problem the Zulu will never have. They're pretty much the ONLY civ that can field a large army in the early game in Brave New World, which means that when Shaka comes knocking you are going to be woefully unprepared.

Impi do upgrade in to riflemen though, and they keep their promotions when they do this. If you can keep your remaining impi alive when you reach rifles, those units become very precious and awesome.

In addition, the part of Shaka's UA that does carry on past the obsolescence of Longswords (promotions are 25% cheaper for all units) is still LUDICROUSLY powerful. Zulu Bombers are almost as unfair as the Impi.

 

[Iry]

The Impi are really not very impressive units. All their upgrades just barely makes them worth taking into battle, and your goal is basically trying to keep them alive and upgraded until they become riflemen.

They just don't hold a candle to more traditional Crossbowmen, Artillery, or Bomber based strategies. Impis do make a fairly decent defensive force, though, able to maneuver around your home turf to take advantage of the 17.5% flanking with less fear of getting actually flanked by enemy troops.

Honestly, Zulu are really good at being a defensive cash-cow nation with savings on a wide empire army... and pumping out highly upgraded Crossbowmen, Artillery, and Bombers.

 

[Dentalfury]

I'm using the Zulu right now to take over my Large Pangaea map with Raging Barbarians.

I don't think they are OP in general. The Impi and Ikanda are awesome if you can support them but if you throw all-in to become a military mad man, like I did, your going to miss out on tech/culture/etc. and your only hope is to either catch up with all the cities you've taken by mid to late game or kill everyone. The Zulu are OP in warfare because they suck at everything else, hence, balance.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm currently facing the Zulu with the Chinese on Immortal.

Indonesia was in between us... Poor Indonesia, he did not last long at all.

Currently its a stand off between Chu-Ko-Nu and Impi. They're both equally powerful imo. The extra attack of the Chu-ko-nu is kind of neutralized by the Impi's range defence. I found I couldn't push forward against Shaka very effectively, but I've turtled up in Jakarta and he can't push forward against me either, so currently just waiting to produce artillery and upgrade the exceptionally well promoted Chu-ko-nu core to Gatling guns (range, march and cover), at which point Shaka will be no more.

So yeah, the Impi could be considered overpowered, but no more overpowered than the Chu-ko-nu.