ZWK version upgrade

Tell me if I sould release a new ZWk version

  • Played old version and will play new version

    Votes: 11 84.6%
  • Played old version and not trying new version

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Never tried old version and but will try new version

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Never tried old version and not trying new version

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • Total voters
    13

kobayashi

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Joined
Feb 15, 2001
Messages
2,709
Location
Singapore
I know that many people have diverted their attention to Civ3 now but after studying several AI vs AI games and going through WillemO's review, I have begun to make several changes which could be released.

Earlier versions focused on the multi-player aspect and I never gave as much attention to the AI as it deserved. Now I want to make good the difficiency. The changes are mainly aimed at dramatically improving the AI's effectiveness against a human player. There are also some facelifts with changes in graphics and a really neat HTML readme.
 
Here's a screenshot showing the HTML readme where you can see the new grassland(bonus).
 

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ooooh, nice

anyway I'll play most scenarios at least once
 
I think you should release it no matter what other thinks about it... I mean, if you think you can improve this scen and make it better, why not try to do that ? :)
 
OK, I've gone full steam ahead on this project. What started out as a bit of tinkering here and there has turned out to be a full blown version upgrade after watching a few dozen hours of AI only battles. Here are the changes implemented for ZWK 'Black'.


The torpedo has been switched to the warrior slot so it will not be built by the AI. The AI knows how to use torpedoes already loaded in subs but I guess it was too much to expect the U-boats to go and reload themselves.

The FW190D correspondingly had been swapped to the slot where the Torpedo used to be. Previously the FW190D occupied the warrior slot and was never built by AI. - sounds had to be changed to accomodate the slot changes so there is a new sound zip.

Reduced the desirability of Submarine Techs to AI so it will not research them until the end. This has dramatically increased the AI's efectivness when commanding the Axis. The desirability of other techs were changed so the probability that the Axis researchs all the tanks before going on to aeroplanes is reduced.

Changed the roles of P-38, Meteor to sea transport from air superiority to make the AI build them. This means they will not be labeled with 'Air' in the defense minister menu.

Berlin starts off with the Youth Movement half built so the Axis AI will actually build it. Budapest also starts off building the Youth Movement. This stops it from mass-producing tanks which wander off and trigger hostilities between the Italians and Germans.

Italians have a sea transport off the east coast of Italy so they can (and do) invade Albania.

Soviets start with a capital ship in Sevastapol and Lenningrad.

Fixed the mispelling of Smyrna and Saloniki.

Denmark is now one big island and the Axis AI will not waste capital ships to keep bombarding it without occupying it.

The road over the Alps between Verona and Munich has been removed.

Fixed some minor errors in the Allied and Axis Tree gifs. Added a Soviet Tech Tree gif.

Neutrals do not start off researching War Adjustment.

Reduced defence factor of AA Battery from 12 to 11 (but still with aeigis and pikeman flags) to let the game unfold faster.

Increased the attack, defence and cost of the BT-7 fast tank.

In addition to Jet Engine, Standard Parts is now a prerequisite of Rocket Engine so you cannot race to build the V1/Fritz-X. Prerequisite of Whirlwind is now sloped armour and not PanzerIV (With sloped armour being introduced, Pz IVs became available for conversion to other roles)

Increased the city size of a few small cities so they are not obliterated so easily.

Further shortened the tags of unit abilities in the defense minister screen so units with many abilities will not scroll off the screen.

Changed the movement of A-bomb from 5 x 4 to 13 x 1. This ensures that AI races will immediately retaliate with their A-bombs if you use yours first. Added the burning pollution icon for a better A-bomb effect.

Changed the grassland bonus from mist to deep green patches and changed border to black (if only so you can tell you are playing version 2.1 just by looking).

Made new icons for the British Resolve and Industrial Revolution wonders.

Updated the government entries in the civpedia so it is now complete.

Replaced the text version of the readme with a HTML version.
 
I just finished my research on AI building choices and I'm writing an artickle about it. But as it takes time I post the main results here, so you can use them for making AI in ZWK better.

1. If AI can build unit in Knight slot, it never builds units in Chariot and Elephant slots, regardless domain, stats and roles of the units;
2. If AI can build unit in Crusader slot, it never builds Chariot slot units.
3. AI never builds units in Partisan and Carrier slots;
4. AI builds Warrior slot units only in Despotism.

Partisan and Carrier slots are OK in ZWK, but I think that you have to do something with Knight/Crusader or Chariot/Elephant slots.
 
I still think you should make some techs tribe specific, so the allies don't build soviet armor, and the Soviets don't build German equipment, ect.

I feel this was a giant weakness in this scenario from the begining.

Also, the Soviet BT-7 should be superior to both the Pzkw II and the Stuart.

Another matter Kob, it takes the Soviets to long to research KV-1 in MP, they had it and T-34s in limited production in 1940.

Also, even though they set up factories in the urals after the German invasion, in civ it takes too long/is to expensive to simulate this, so Russia1/2/3 should all have industrial estates at start. Also, I think that it should be a capital ship in Leningrad (or at least a cruiser), and a Capital ship at Stvastapol.
 
Thanks for your comments.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I still think you should make some techs tribe specific, so the allies don't build soviet armor, and the Soviets don't build German equipment, ect. I feel this was a giant weakness in this scenario from the begining.

I have given much thought to this. The mechanics of the Civ2 engine simply do not allow what you want in a fashion alligned with the scenario's theme.

One way to do this is to ban all negotiation - I have done this in a limited manner disallowing negotiation between either Allies or Soviets and the Germans. But as I recall, a certain gentleman was already complaining bitterly that he was not allowed as the Soviets to negotiate with the Germans.

A second way is to make all the relevant techs no-no but that would mean they can't be researched and would have to be received via events at regular intervals. That would completely kill the idea of research choice. As it is, I have built in discontinuous tech lineage so you can't research down another powers tech tree.

A third way is to make all units from one power obsolete to a single no-no tech given to all others. That would mean having a few dozen units in the build menu at the end since new units would not make old ones obsolete. I already have some limited cross obsolecence where posible (like hawker typhoon makes Ju-87 obsolete).

A more complicated way would be to have a seperate No-No tech to make each unit obsolete. Thus if Axis discovers FW190D, there will be an event to give them a ME109 Obsolete tech which the Allies and Soviets have at the beginning. Sadly, there isn't enough tech slots or event space to try this.


Also, the Soviet BT-7 should be superior to both the Pzkw II and the Stuart.


From a specs point this is true. BT-7 had a 45mm gun and was faster with about the same armour thickness. However, I have also to take into account training, support and tactics factors. The Soviets are meant to (and did) get beaten up at the beginning and I can't give them a powerful tank at the start. Let me run a few simulations and see if I can up the BT-7 stats without upsetting the scheme of things.


Another matter Kob, it takes the Soviets to long to research KV-1 in MP, they had it and T-34s in limited production in 1940.

Your scientists are already designing the T-34, you just haven't been informed. The moment your first infantry division gets killed by a german unit, you will 'discover' you can build it immediately.


Also, even though they set up factories in the urals after the German invasion, in civ it takes too long/is to expensive to simulate this, so Russia1/2/3 should all have industrial estates at start. Also, I think that it should be a capital ship in Leningrad (or at least a cruiser), and a Capital ship at Stvastapol.


The Soviet's advantage is free support and fast population growth. But it is poor and has slow research. The industrial estates cost money to upkeep and would not be effective in small cities. As time passes, the Soviets industrial might will be formidable, I have run several tests and the soviets can literally have hundreds of T-34/85 by mid game.

You Capital Ship idea makes sense. As I recall, giving the Soviets a capital ship early in the south makes the AI attack turkey. Let me try some simulations on that as well.
 
Originally posted by Marko
I just finished my research on AI building choices and I'm writing an artickle about it. But as it takes time I post the main results here, so you can use them for making AI in ZWK better.

1. If AI can build unit in Knight slot, it never builds units in Chariot and Elephant slots, regardless domain, stats and roles of the units;
2. If AI can build unit in Crusader slot, it never builds Chariot slot units.
3. AI never builds units in Partisan and Carrier slots;
4. AI builds Warrior slot units only in Despotism.

Partisan and Carrier slots are OK in ZWK, but I think that you have to do something with Knight/Crusader or Chariot/Elephant slots.

Thanks for your help. I've visually checked all the combo's you've listed and I think my only possible problem may the the Knight-Elephant conflict. But I don't know if my experience with simulating ZWK matches with your results. I seem to recall seeing the Allied AI building both B-17 and AA guns among other things. I will see if I can prove/disprove any of the relationships you have come out with so far. Would like to see the tests you employed when your article come out.

p.s. did you factor in trigger technologies - like discovering gunpowder gives the musketeer slot its powers
 
Marko,

you are right, when Allies get B-17 (Knight) they stop making AA Guns (Elephant).

AI never builds militiamen (partisan) just like you predicted.

AoA,

I've upped the BT-7 from 13/9 to 18/12 so its better than PzII and M3 Stuart. Also added the two capital ships with no adverse side effects.

Anyone Else,

Any other ideas, speak now or it will be too late. (within 24 hrs and No engineers)
 
Well, if no egineers, how about settlers?

They can only build roads, won't change terrain, and you can make them expensive so the AI will be reluctant to make them.

Would be nice to have them, also, you can change the tiome it takes to make fortifacations to some ridiculous number (like 100 turns), to make it improbile that it would be a tactic often used.

I know your arguments, but I love to improve terrain! :)
 
Looks good Kob, is it the downloads here?
 
Yes its the second scenario on this page:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2scenmod.shtml

But unfortunately, you cannot use it while you are playing the PBEM game - unless you know how to selectively copy only some files over to your existing ZWK directory. There was a slot change so most of the files are incompatible with the old version.

What you can apply retroactively for the 'Black' effect is the terrain.gif and icons.bmp.
 
Kobayashi you are doing a great job please dont quit any time soon .I was wondering if you would think of doing a vietnam scenario I would love to see your work.there has never been a good one done yet.
 
Thank you for saying that. I am really not that proficient at making terreterial scenarios myself. ZWK's my first attempt and I haven't nailed it down yet after 4 versions. Getting there....

I'm more the outerspace scenario guy around here. The guys you should be asking about a Vietnam scenario are Marko, Case, Morten...etc
 
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