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zyxy01: Russian Polar Expedition

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by zyxy, Dec 15, 2005.

  1. Smart

    Smart King

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    No, there is no peace treaty reputation.
    You wouldn't trash rep, if your peace treaty didn't contain: RoP, MA, MPP, embargo, gpt, and recources deal. You can check diplomacy screen for it:



    In this case you can safetly declare war.
     
  2. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    Alright so your reputation will remain intact so long as the deal shown in diplomacy screen contains only the peace treaty. I get it now.
     
  3. McLMan

    McLMan Afraid of the monkeys

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    That's been my expereince too. Most of the time, at the bottom of the diplomacy screen it says something like "This deal will last until war is redeclared" unless there are resources or gpt involved in which it says something like "This deal will last for 20 turns."

    We made peace for 3 techs, so we should be ok.

    Edit: We should take advantage of the peace to set ourselves up to get the rest of Englands techs when we do re-declare.
     
  4. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    Turn 1 (cont'd) - I take a look at our military with a view to turning the English into our punching bag again. We have 16 swords available and I take a peek to see which ones can be spared from MP duty, all those that can are deployed to Hastings in preperation for an attack. Decide to go for research on CoL for Republic at 1 scientist research. Worker moves, mostly mining irrigated grassland and the like.

    IBT - China starts the Hanging Gardens

    Turn 2 - Worker moves, repositioning troops zzzzz

    IBT - Persian and Japanese galleys show, I guess that solves all the problems re: contacts.

    Turn 3 - We can trade resources and luxuries with the Japanese as there is only coastal tiles seperating us. We are able to trade for any tech other than Monarchy or Construction for 2 Luxuries. Or we could trade 2 lux's for 1 of theirs. Decide to grab Philosophy for the Republic and a WM for dyes, Spices and 60 gold. Taking a look at the world map... ouch. This really is going to be a polar expedition! Most of the known world is mountainous (like China and Zululand) or frozen. Our lands taken from England are some of the best in the known world! There are no deals possible with the persians.

    IBT - Nothing visible.

    Turn 4 - Canterbury riots. Now explain this to me... its size 2, we arnt at war with the country its citizens are from, we have 2 luxs hooked up to it and it has a military police.... :confused: totally bizare and when I check the city it has 2 content faces (remember its only size 2...). :hmm:
    St Petersburg: Temple --> sword. Swords start to be sent to Odessa as well so we can attack from 2 points.

    IBT - Chinese galleys move around

    Turn 5 - Canterbury: Sword --> Sword. One of the problems thats preventing us from building infra atm... is that we cant build any infra! we could build granaries but atm we lack the ability to keep the people happy when the cities grow beyond 6. Lit or Currency would be nice but we dont have it so I decide to stick with military build up. We now have 20 swords and hope to redeclare on England in a turn or 2. England is buying iron from someone as they have swords. China will finally talk for peace. Get HBR for peace and 38 gold. They are into the MA and wouldnt trade any other techs even if i threw in all our gold and more than a quarter of our gpt so i decided to get HBR. Switch nottingham from rax to settler. North of China I spy red borders and a check of F10 reveals it is the Romans. A galley would be handy but alas its not to be.

    IBT - Galleys move around on our coast and english troops move around inside their borders but basicly nothing. Persia completes the Hanging Gardens.

    Turn 6 - Would like to declare now but still need to position more troops in odessa. A peek at the Zulu-Persian territory reveals that they are at war (no embassies with either so couldnt otherwise tell)or were earlier as a number of Zulu cities belong to the persians. Actually after making the moves i realise that we are safe to declare war now as the English can't reach any cities for 2 turns which gives us time to send more defenders. Take a deep breath (still not 100% convinced about rep from this) and declare. Before moving any units I decide to check our rep by offering gpt for a tech and the result... 'they would never accept such a deal'... even if i offer our whole income and throw in some resources. Oddly they will now what were u saying about no peace treaty reputation?? I told you that because we took something from them straight up it would count as breaking a gpt deal. Oddly they will still accept them for maps (prob cos they'r practically worthless) but not for any techs. This begs the question is it just techs because thats wat we got with our peace deal, what if we'd taken maps would the result be different? Anyway our loss but its too late to do anything about it now. Can still trade for luxs though so offer Mao dyes and spices for Silks, throw in ne gpt and it becomes 'getting close' throw in any gold it becomes 'never accept'. Looks like its gunna be cash up front for techs from now on. With the extra lux
    Move swords toward Warrick. Get ready for the counterattack. Check our cities before hitting enter. All english towns will riot so switch to taxmen where possible. Only York is on starvation the rest just no growth.

    IBT - A Sword and an archer both attack our main sword stack. Our elite sword dies inflicting no damage to the sword, the archer is killed but yellowlines a vet sword.

    Turn 7 - A sword kills a vet archer for no damage the main stack continues toward warrick. Reinforcements coming from the rear.

    IBT - Nothing visible.

    Turn 8 - Moscow: Sword --> Sword (in 3) St Petersburg: Sword --> Sword (in 4). St Petersburg also grows culturally. First sword attacks Warrick, kills reg spear without taking damage and gets promoted to elite. 2nd sword dies but redlines the spear. 3rd kills the spear without taking damage and takes the city. Keep the city, 3 resistors, set to build workers. Get 1 slave from the battle. Move the rest of the stack into the city to quell resistance and use the roads next turn.

    IBT - Archer attacks the mini-stack (2 swords, 1 spear) outside coventry and suicides against the spear causing no damage and promoting our spear to elite.

    Turn 9 - With just 1 resistor quelled in warrick i set him to taxman to start starving the city down. Leave the sword injured by the archer attack at the start of the war in the city as garrison and the rest of the army joins up with the mini stack outside coventry. Sword in odessa attacks archer outside city... and dies causing 1 damage :rolleyes:. 2nd sword then kills archer for no damage. Sword from mini stack attacks coventry n kills spear but is yellowlined. 2nd sword kills next spear for loss of 1 hp revealing injured sword in the city. Take a risk and attack with elite spear... and we win without taking damage! Go the super spear!!! :spear: Unfortunately no leader but we take and hold the city. better news is there are no resistors. Not really sure what to do with the city tho.. its useless for everything other than unit support as in its position would probably only be able to grab maybe 4 coastal tiles making it useless even for a fishing village. set to worker. We also get 2 slaves that were in the city. Swords from the main stack now link up at Coventry leaving the sword injured by the archer to garrison warwick. Check our cities and no city is using an unworked tile. This war is over, all that remains is to take London and Newcastle and they won't be protected by anymore than 2 spears each. Goodbye england :ar15:

    IBT - Nothing, i dont think England even has archers left that they can send at us.

    Turn 10 - York: Settler --> granary (as a prebuild for a courthouse as I plan to get CoL from the English) another resistor quelled in warwick. Smolensk: Sword --> Sword. Start to march swords out of Coventry toward Newcastle. Will be in position to attack in 2 turns (3 till actually attack). The two injured attacking coventry move into the city to heal so the super spear accompanies the 4 swords free. Theres 1 free sword at Odessa and some more heading to the front. Sword moves onto hills east north east of London and reveals no visible offensive units though there is a vet archer in London. Decide to check and England refuses to acknowledge our envoy. Well with no more moves to make I pass it over here.

    Post-Turn Thoughts
    Ok well a mixed turn. No problems in the war with England, they were gassed long before this war began. We needed to go to war again for tech as we have nothing to build but military units. The bad news is our rep is gone. Before anyone says anything I'd like to say in my defence that I asked about it, I said I thought it would ruin our rep but I was assured that we were safe. I'm sorry but I could only work with the infomation i was given. And yes I am certain we didnt break any trade routes or nething, it was purely breaking the peace treaty. We have a number of elites, including 1 sword, 1 spear and 2 archers. Suggest getting them to try and do all the fighting in the hopes of popping a leader. CoL is due in 31 unless we get it from England and the FP is due in 10. We have 1 settler (english however but soon they'll be dead so that doesnt matter) around 20 english workers, 2 archers (elites), 3 spears (1 elite) and 21 swords (1 elite, 19 vet, 1 reg). We dont have MM so inter-island war is out of the question right now. When we get it I suggest hammering either Japan or China. Zulu and Persia might be at war but I can't be certain, they could have just been at war earlier. Our military is rated strong to england and china, average to japan and weak to persia.

    So now I pass it on hoping that the consensus is that I'm allowed to be part fo the team.

    The world today
     
  5. Smart

    Smart King

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    Ohhh, bad news... :( That article is really wrong... I've tried this in one of my games, and I can't make gpt deals after breaking peace treaty. :blush:
    Sorry about that, i will post it in war academy discussion thread, and they should correct that article :rolleyes:
     
  6. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    Yeah I know, maybe its for C3C and Vanilla is different or something, I dunno. Either that or its like i thought, that if you took anything solid (gold, maps techs etc.) then if u break the treaty it counts as breaking a gpt deal. DW though there's nothing we can do now, like i said, we could only work with the infomation we had at hand. We'll manage without it, I've played other diety games (albeit with better starts) where ive lost my rep early and still won.
     
  7. Smart

    Smart King

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    Yes, we can still win, but it will add more challange to the game :)
    There is one way to recover our rep - go into MA with all civs against England, and they will "forget" all, that we have done against our common enemy. About it I'm 100% sure ;)
     
  8. Own

    Own Grasshoppah

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    lurker's comment: I'm pretty sure that if you've shot your rep it's gone for good. You can still win though, steals don't require a good rep ;) . Will be following very closely
     
  9. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    Yep its gone for good, if you get into a MA with someone AGAINST the person you ruined ur rep with then the civ in the MA with you will forget ur past transgressions against the civ you are in the MA against for the duration of the MA.
     
  10. Smart

    Smart King

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    Will they forget about our broken deal, if we will sign MA just before destroying England?
     
  11. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    Yes but only for the duration of the MA, its not a permenant thing. After that it will be no gpt deals ever as its england who we broke our rep against. Suggest making a MA with whichever civ we want to trade with just prior to finishing off england, then make a gpt trade (luxs or actual gpt) with that civ. We should make the most of that opportunity I think.
     
  12. nerovats

    nerovats Emperor

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    :bump: according to me, McLman is up.
     
  13. McLMan

    McLMan Afraid of the monkeys

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    Got it, will play this evening.
     
  14. McLMan

    McLMan Afraid of the monkeys

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    Pre-turn thoughts:
    I am really confused about our reputation. And am looking forward to the return of Tone & zyxy so they can explain what happened & why. Not sure I agree with getting CoL from England, unless we can get MM with it. We're going to need galleys to get across the channel & continue our expansion.

    Pre Turn) 110 BC
    Look at the possibility of signing an MA before destroying what's left of England. We can't at the moment, we don't have any embassies. Checking the price: China - 35g, Japan - 50g, Persia - 78g. A check of attitude shows that China is Cautious, while Japan and Persia are both Annoyed. China might be more willing to deal with us. So I build an embassy there now just in case the cost goes up in the next couple of turns.



    Nice to see Mao is wasting his shields and upkeep money. The growth potential is amazing, just 12 surplus food to grow in size. And only 72 shields to build a colosseum that would cost us 120.

    Hit Enter

    IT
    Moscow: Sword -> Sword (3)
    Warwick Starves
    Minsk: Sword -> Sword (5)

    Turn 1) 90 BC
    Reinforcements moving South
    Vet Sword is red-lined taking out the Reg Archer on the hill E of London.
    Stack captures a worker N of Newcastle.
    Check to see what it's going to cost for an alliance.



    This is the cheapest deal that could be worked out (Our part that is out of the window is ROP). First I tried just a straight alliance and Mao wanted WM, 189 g, & 13 gpt. I was able to talk him down to WM, 181 g, & 11 gpt. When I threw in ROP he allowed me to knock 2 gpt off of the deal, but wouldn't budge on anything else. By the way, he's polite now.

    Seems a bit steep. That would leave us with 8 gold and 15 gpt to try to get a tech. Do you think we could get anything for that? I'm unsure what to do so I'm going to not going to continue without discussion from the team.

    I will continue tomorrow afternoon. (GMT -5)
     
  15. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    I'll see if i can be a bit clearer abotu what happened, obviously I'm not as knowledgeable as the likes of Tone but it is my understanding that:
    we signed peace with england (20 turns, consider it to be us giving them gpt even though we werent) in exchange for techs. Now we violated that peace deal before it was up (consider that a broken trade route or that we have just stopped paying the gpt before the deal was up) and as such ruined our rep. The reason, as I understand it, that our rep was ruined is because we accepted hard goods as part of the peace deal (hard good being gold, techs etc.). Now if I am right in my assumptions then if we had been receiving purely gpt (no hard goods only things on a turn by turn basis) then our rep would not be ruined. The reason I think this is because if you have a straight lux for lux deal with nothing else, if that deal gets broken prematurely then you don't suffer a rep hit, I have found.
    Hope that helps a bit, but the whole situation is a little murky. I double checked that no trades were broken so its definately the breaking the peace treaty that did it, why? Well I'm not 100% sure but what above is my understanding of it.


    Tot the trades now, we have spare lux's but not much else. Are we able to trade with Persia or Zululand? If not then I don't think an alliance will do much for us. We are already trading luxuries to china and japan. Maybe we could get something with the gpt left over after paying china for an alliance, maybe not. What we could do is put the slider up to 100% tax so it appears that we have more money than we do, sign an alliance for JUST GPT with China, then buy tech using gpt and cash straight up. Once we have finished trading immediately finish off england so that we dont have to pay the gpt for the alliance anymore. Thats my suggestion as by doing that we save some of our hard cash for the trade.
     
  16. nerovats

    nerovats Emperor

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    This is too expensive, could leave english alive and finish them later, they might trade a bit more, then take one city claim tech for peace again.

    I think what went wrong is this, they paid techs for 20 turns peace not less. It would be the same if we got a lot of cash for peace. When just getting gpt, one could say they pay that amount for every turn of peace, thus when you cancel it, they just paid for the turns of peace they got, not more, making it somewhat of a fair deal.
     
  17. McLMan

    McLMan Afraid of the monkeys

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    OK. Continuing with no alliance.

    IT
    St. Pete: Sword -> Sword (4)

    Turn 2) 70 BC
    4 vet swords and an elite spear take on Newcastle
    1st sword dies redlining a vet spear
    2nd sword loses 2 HP killing a reg spear & reveals the redlined spear.
    Send in superspear to try for a leader. He's redlined but wins, no leader though.



    It keeps it's harbor so we keep Newcaslte. England down to one city - London.
    Check to see if Elizabeth will give anything for peace and she refuses the envoy.

    IT
    Two Chinese galleys are making their way down the West coast of our island.
    An archer out of London rushes out in a despearate counterattack and suicides vs. a vet sword making his way around the pond to meet up with the stack. The sword is redlined though.
    Odessa: Worker -> Temple (60)

    Turn 3) 50 BC
    Moving toward London

    IT
    Moscow: Sword -> Sword (3)

    Turn 4) 30 BC
    Check to see if we can afford any techs. All 3 civs we can trade with will only give up CoL but nothing else. China with the best price at WM + 199 gold.
    England still won't talk.
    Stack of 4 Swords musters outside of London with reinforcements close behind.
    China is a Republic, the only civ we know with a representative government.

    IT
    Another desperate counterattack by a reg archer from London. This time the vet sword loses only 2 HP taking him out.
    Minsk: Sword -> Sword (4)

    Turn 5) 10 BC
    Newcastle is still in full resistance, and is likely to flip with a garrison of 2 right now (1.5% - 2.8% chance).
    Don't know what to do with the Settler so I fortify him in Moscow.
    A vet sword wins against a vet spear in London without losing a single HP in an attempt to persuade Elizabeth to settle for peace.
    English still refuse the envoy. Gamble that there were more than 2 spears defending London and attack with another sword. The sword loses, the spear is redlined, and it is discovered that he is the sole defender of a civilization. Check to see if we knocked any sense into Elizabeth and ...



    I let the remaining swords fortify on the spot.

    IT
    A Japanese galley appears from the East.
    St. Pete: Sword -> Sword (4)
    Smolensk: Sword -> Sword (5)

    We lose a vet sword and the elite superspear. Would have required a garrison of 32 to prevent it from happening. We can now continue our assault of London to keep pressure on.

    Turn 6) 10 AD
    London is ours after a vet sword defeats the lone reg spear. Reluctantly keep the city to prevent an attitude hit.
    Liz still won't talk.
    Another tech becomes affordable!



    China again has the bargain. We make the deal, switch coastal builds to galleys

    IT
    Moscow: Sword -> Cat

    Turn 7) 30 AD
    London riots as 2 resistors were quelled. Switch them to taxmen.

    IT
    Warwick: Worker -> Cat (20)

    Turn 8) 50 AD
    China, Japan, & Persia know Literature.
    London starves & 1 resistor is gone. Re-set specialists to taxmen.
    Although flip chances are slim, 0.4 to 0.0% (I don't know why 0.4 is the min and 0.0 is the max), I move all units other than 1 sword outside of London.
    Liz is finally ready to talk! And she's willing to give all she's got for peace.



    We get: CoL, Currency, Construction, Monarchy, and Contact with the Zulu.

    The peace brings us into the Middle ages, and a free tech.



    Japan and the Zulu don't know Monotheism. Japan is up Literature, and we are up Monotheism to the Zulu. While Japan is the best target for our invasion, I feel we should look elsewhere first because ...



    Make the deal. Lux slider goes down to 0%, mm to take taxmen out of cities and let them grow. +33 gpt. Still researching with one Scientist in Moscow (Feudalism). And check this out!



    I think this would be a good stopping point for me, and a better starting point for the next player. Zulu don't have much to offer for Monotheism, but that trade is still available. Also, we don't have any turns into our current research project so it can easily be changed now after some discussion. In hindsight I wish I hadn't traded for MM, we probably could have got it from England too. I really didn't think Elizabeth would throw in everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink though.
    In my opinion we shouldn't wait for Republic to change governments. 70% research will get it to us in 31 turns, with +2 gpt going into the treasury. Any higher % and we'd be running a defecit. I'm for playing this game with Monarchy. With the way the map is laid out, wars will continually cut off any luxes we're trading for and battling a luxury defecit along with war weariness could prove too expensive. With no unit support for Republic in Vanilla, and the time it will take to get it, I really don't think it will be worth it.

    zyxy01_50AD.SAV
     
  18. tupaclives

    tupaclives Tupac Lives on!!

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    Good work McLman, nice stuff getting all those techs from lizzie :goodjob:
    I actually forgot we were scientific and would get a free tech. If we want to get Republic then would China sell it to us for Monotheism?

    But McLman brings up an interesting point, we could go the Monarchy route however I'm pretty confident that if we can get republic NOW and for cheap (maybe using Monotheism) then we could go for Republic. We arn't religious so whatever we choose we are going to have to stick with for a while and the extra commerce and corruptin reduction from republic puts it ahead for me. At first we were worried about using Republic in Chinese Dynasty but there was very little time when we werent at war and War Weariness didn't start to set in till almost the end of the game. Obviously it would be a bigger impact here due to slower conquest and more time spent in enemy territory but I'm still in favour of republic, its a suprisingly sturdy war government. Thats just my $0.02 tho and Monarchy could be the way to go.
     
  19. nerovats

    nerovats Emperor

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    Well played, we're really looking good now. Got it.
     
  20. McLMan

    McLMan Afraid of the monkeys

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    Without looking at the save, IIRC the Chinese already know Monotheism & we don't have anything else to offer.
     

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