History questions not worth their own thread III

[LightSpectra]

Would the revolution have happened without him? or would it just have taken longer to get people all roused up to support it?

He didn't even come to America until the end of 1774, well after the Thirteen Colonies had become outraged by the Intolerable Acts. His first major pro-independence publication was Common Sense in 1776, which was after the Revolution had de facto began.

The question is how many people became/remained contributing Whigs because of Thomas Paine, and that's somewhat unanswerable. I can tell you that very few people actually ascribed to Paine's political positions, since even the most radical members of the Democratic-Republicans had denounced Common Sense before the turn of the century.

 

[civ_king]

How did Raynald of Chatillon rout Saladin at the Battle of Montgisard when he was totally outnumbered?

 

[LightSpectra]

How did Raynald of Chatillon rout Saladin at the Battle of Montgisard when he was totally outnumbered?

It wasn't Raynald's plan, it was King Baldwin's. Basically, Saladin's reconnaissance had correctly determined the size of the Christian army, and assumed they wouldn't attack due to being severely outnumbered. Hence, Saladin allowed his army to go out of formation in order to travel. So on November 25, Baldwin's army had reached the rear of Saladin's forces and was able to individually route each portion of Saladin's army in sequence. It's called "defeat in detail".

 

[civ_king]

mea culpa, I thought since Raynald commanded the forces it would use him.

So it was a really gutsy manoeuvre and he destroyed Saladin's army piecemeal?

 

[Masada]

So it was a really gutsy manoeuvre and he destroyed Saladin's army piecemeal?

Yes, Montgisard had an influence on the attitudes of the Christian armies at Hattin. Obviously, cran didn't much help them there.

 

[Tee Kay]

The American Marat, I believe I've heard him called.

Wouldn't Marat be the French Paine though?

 

[sydhe]

Paine lived longer, perhaps because he avoided the bathtub.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Wouldn't Marat be the French Paine though?

I suppose. I tend to think of French revolutionaries as the archetype, as do many people. The American Marat. The Red Carnot. The Scottish Jacobins. et cetera

 

[Dachs]

I suppose. I tend to think of French revolutionaries as the archetype, as do many people. The American Marat. The Red Carnot. The Scottish Jacobins. et cetera

I wonder why you do that

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'd argue Thomas Paine was a major factor in pushing popular opinion into wanted Independence instead of simply a better deal. It might have happened anyway, but it was an extraordinarily popular piece of literature when it was published so I think it was a noteworthy factor.

 

[LightSpectra]

I'd argue Thomas Paine was a major factor in pushing popular opinion into wanted Independence instead of simply a better deal. It might have happened anyway, but it was an extraordinarily popular piece of literature when it was published so I think it was a noteworthy factor.

Popularity is not a sign of influence. Glenn Beck has millions of viewers but you're not going to hear even half of that audience repeat his views.

Come to think of it, this is a better analogy than I thought, since Thomas Paine was something of a rambling apocalyptic republican. He stopped just short of becoming Brissot's right hand because he was a foreigner.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Still, the majority of delegates to the congress before the pamphlet did not support independence. Afterward, they did. While I won't say correlation equals causation in this case, it is a strong argument considering how widely it was read and discussed. Now perhaps he said what a large silent group of Americans already believed, but he articulated it in a way that people could get behind and support.

I certainly don't think he's comparable to a Glen Beck.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Wouldn't Marat be the French Paine though?

Wouldn't Paine be the French Paine?

 

[Dreadnought]

Is Carl Friedrich's definition of a nation generally considered the "correct" definition? Or is there another, more accepted version?

 

[Dachs]

Wouldn't Paine be the French Paine?

"Paine is useful as a rabble-rouser; but rabble-rousers are needed before revolutions, not after."

 

[ParkCungHee]

"Paine is useful as a rabble-rouser; but rabble-rousers are needed before revolutions, not after."

Is that referring to American Paine or French Paine?
It seems to work for both.

 

[Dachs]

It's a St.-Just quote from the Sandman story "Thermidor", as he and Lady Johanna pass by Paine's cell.

 

[Louis XXIV]

What's the consensus on whether or not the Romans knew Vesuvius was a volcano? Did they know it was a volcano and just think it wasn't active, not know it was a volcano, not know of volcanoes? Would we have to base this entirely on Pliny or are there other helpful accounts?

 

[spryllino]

If I remember correctly, they didn't know or understand the phenomenon of volcanoes. There weren't really any other large eruptions that I can think of in Roman times, and so Vesuvius was pretty unique in its day. Pliny continually refers to "that terrible mountain" or something along those lines because he didn't have a word for a volcano, and, in Pliny the Younger's account, his uncle always behaves as though he doesn't understand the phenomenon; Pliny says that his uncle considered it "something great and worthy of closer investigation."

So I think the Romans didn't know what a volcano was (aside from isolated natural phenomena like Etna, and this isn't to say that I doubt that there are other accounts of flaming mountains here and there in sources like Pliny the Elder or Diodorus), and certainly didn't know about the possibility of large scale eruptions of that sort.

 

[North King]

I'm curious how one would determine the "influence" of a specific historical figure. I suppose you could do a statistical analysis of all literature containing a quotation or idea of Thomas Paine written during the era of the American Revolution and then compare that to the literate population of the Americas, but even that has several of its own issues.

Qualitatively?

Or is that too "unscientific"?



Anyway, he was at least fairly influential as a radicalizing force.