Crossbowmen until modern era (a possibile solution)

[Draskar]

Hi to all,
i think all civ5 players really don't like how Archery units survive until moder era, expecially if you have a pluri-decorated crossbowmen with range 3 and double fire, and a lot of players never upgrade them to riflemen.

G&K will mitigate this issue with the introdution of Gatling guns but i think the problem still remain: a Crossbowman can damage riflemen without taking losses due to the (right) change of war scaling in gunpowder wars (and worst of all, crossbowmen can sink modern ships with a few HP returning to homeland)

Thinking about "Scurvy promotion" in "New world" scenario, why don't add a negative promotion to all ancient ranged units that cause a big collateral damage when shooting at gunpowder units?

Can this addition be part of the "combat improvement" of G&K?

 

[CYZ]

You forget one thing. All units are getting 100 health instead of 10.

The reason archers can do serious damage to riflemen is because they always do minimum 1 damage. With 10 total health 1 damage is 10% (a few archers can easily kill 1 riflemen before being taken out), with 100 it's only 1%. Thus the crossbows and archer will do neglectable damage to modern units.

 

[donald23]

There has been talk about upgrading the crossbows to gatling guns in later era's. Which is supposed to also be a ranged unit. That would mean it can retain it's promotions! Which makes the idea you put forth here not needed.

 

[Draskar]

Yes minimum (1 aka 10%) damage was the main problem, with 100hp the problem is less heavy, but you forget that one promoted (open range I & II) crossbowmen in a city can fire against a riflemen on plains and do 4-5 damage, not 1!
To avoid this issue, developers have tu douplicate riflemen's strenght, but i think isn't compatible with 60 strenght machinegun.
The problem still remain, crossbowmen in a city is better than a riflemen!

 

[Draskar]

There has been talk about upgrading the crossbows to gatling guns in later era's. Which is supposed to also be a ranged unit. That would mean it can retain it's promotions! Which makes the idea you put forth here not needed.

Gatling isn't the answer, i'm almost sure that gatlings comes after riflemen, and you need gold to upgrade. If you don't have money to upgrade you still have a medieval unit that can compete with a XIX century unit.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yes minimum (1 aka 10%) damage was the main problem, with 100hp the problem is less heavy, but you forget that one promoted (open range I & II) crossbowmen in a city can fire against a riflemen on plains and do 4-5 damage, not 1!
To avoid this issue, developers have tu douplicate riflemen's strenght, but i think isn't compatible with 60 strenght machinegun.
The problem still remain, crossbowmen in a city is better than a riflemen!

I guess, but in that example the crossbow would have to shoot the rifleguy 20 times to kill him. And, IMHO, if a player lets his rifle stand there and get shot that many times, maybe he/she deserves to lose.

 

[Rex_Mundi]

Draskars example is very valid, at the moment the crossbowman can do 4-5 dammage out of 10. This is more than half the dammage a rifleman will do, so even after raising to 100 health it would still do more than half the dammage of a rifleman.

 

[Draskar]

I guess, but in that example the crossbow would have to shoot the rifleguy 20 times to kill him. And, IMHO, if a player lets his rifle stand there and get shot that many times, maybe he/she deserves to lose.

No no, you are wrong, with 100HP system in this example the crossbowmen do 35-50 damage to the rifleman!
They have to change the strenght of riflemen and change the ratio to have a damage of max 10, but in this way still ugly to see a crossbowmen in a city fire against riflemen and kill him without exit from the city.

 

[Babri]

Zulus beating British rifles, remember... Actually right now ranged units are OP. With the introduction of 100HP as well as battles taking more time, it won't be easy to kill a rifle with an archer & would probably take about 5 turns. Still even in real world a very experienced & professional squad of archers can definately takedown an untrained & dumb riflemen who are standing there & not avoiding getting hit.

 

[Alk3Crimson]

Given the new info about the Machine Gun unit, I don't see why all Gunpowder units don't get the option to make a ranged attack to any adjacent unit. Just make it so a gunpowder unit attacking a city will take return fire so it's not overpowered, but otherwise they can make a retalliation-free attack with a range of one space. Crossbows could then be reduced to having a range of one as well, and upgrade directly into muskets.

 

[vonbach]

Zulus beating British rifles, remember...

Yeah and they took enormous casualties doing it lol.

 

[CYZ]

Hmmm... Well, all combat is being changed, including health, strength and damage. So it might just turn out the problem is gone then.

Also, is it that wrong for highly promoted units to do damage against unpromotod higher tech units? It doesn't seem unreasonable that a horse archer can damage a knight if it was much better trained to me. Or a highly trained swordsman to take down a musketmen.

That being said, the amount of damage is certainly too high now. But who knows what it will be with the new combat system?

 

[dexters]

I consider this issue fixed for now.

Also, I'm not in support of any unit adjustments until we get a handle of the 100hp system and the new upgrade tree for ranged units.

The worst thing we want is to suggest and actually get devs to make a change that might not be needed.

 

[Draskar]

I consider this issue fixed for now.

Also, I'm not in support of any unit adjustments until we get a handle of the 100hp system and the new upgrade tree for ranged units.

The worst thing we want is to suggest and actually get devs to make a change that might not be needed.

With great powers comes great responsibility

I think i was missunderstood, the problem isn't "how many damage could a crossobowman do to a riflemen", the problem is "crossbowmen is ranged becouse is a ranged medieval unit and he can hit a rifleman without taking losses and I don't want that all gunpowder units become 2-exe ranged unit to solve this. There's a solution?"

It's right that a ultra-trained samurai assault a newbie rifleman and win, it's not right that crossbowmen in an island can damage riflemen and riflemen can't do the same without embarking, anfibius attacking and take other casualities for the close combat.

 

[dexters]

With great powers comes great responsibility

I think i was missunderstood, the problem isn't "how many damage could a crossobowman do to a riflemen", the problem is "crossbowmen is ranged becouse is a ranged medieval unit and he can hit a rifleman without taking losses and I don't want that all gunpowder units become 2-exe ranged unit to solve this. There's a solution?"

It's right that a ultra-trained samurai assault a newbie rifleman and win, it's not right that crossbowmen in an island can damage riflemen and riflemen can't do the same without embarking, anfibius attacking and take other casualities for the close combat.

no problem. reality vs. unreality arguments like that always is a topic of discussion in Civ.

So ultimately promoted crossbows will still probably do good damage on a 100hp rifles. will probably take many turns to kill or many crossbows but it's still possible. And yes, maybe that isn't totally realistic. I suspect though there will be a unit replacing them in that era in the expansion now.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Or maybe this is just the premise for a Fantasy/Sci-Fi book that some one has been looking for: Elite force of crossbowmen defend their lands from the villiany of a gunpowder age tyrant.

 

[Draskar]

Or maybe this is just the premise for a Fantasy/Sci-Fi book that some one has been looking for: Elite force of crossbowmen defend their lands from the villiany of a gunpowder age tyrant.

Something like "Wilhelm Tell at Gettysburg"?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

We have a premise, a setting, and a title, time to write a cover letter to send to a literary agent!

 

[Vexus]

I've always thought a good solution to the crossbow dilemma was:

crossbow -> skirmisher (i.e. civil war era) -> mortar (i.e. WW1, WW2) -> advanced mortar

 

[Nyanko]

Personally I am wondering what the machine guns will upgrade to... Snipers? Mortars?