SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Looks like Mali culture NW of Ulundi and NE of Old Sarai. Inca and Mali are at S/N ends of the mountain barrier. Has this been discussed before?

Maybe we can get an egyptian map as a war concession. Hammy was offering his.
 
Option 4 is to attack Shaka, capturing Akkad (and its fort) and Ulundi (and build another fort so we can get a ship through). I am not advocating that at this time. ;)

For the plop-a-city-in-Egypt plan, it'll take 617 EPs to revolt Thebes, 585 for Memphis (without discounts).

2 turns until AP vote. The one after that (if I'm reading things correctly) will be an AP election. We also can change civics again in 2 turns. We will soon have clams and fish from Babylonia, and bananas once we get Calendar. However... perhaps we want to research Liberalism (could be done in 3 turns) and gift it so the AI will switch to Free Religion. BTW, Liz is now running Free Market.

I think we need to decide between the peaceful invasion of Egypt (to build a temporary city) and the violent invasion of Egypt (to capture Satsuma).
 
Just to focus things a little bit, I think we should figure out how to win in 22 turns. It can't be 12 because in 12 turns we'll have another AP election. ;) So 22 it is. We need to infect the last 2 civs with Hinduism and get somebody to like us enough to vote for us. How tough can it be? :) We whip an army, march to Satsuma, capture it, wait for it to come out of revolt, build a caravel (or two), and set sail. Too tight a schedule? Let's try to work it out.
 
Just to focus things a little bit, I think we should figure out how to win in 22 turns. It can't be 12 because in 12 turns we'll have another AP election. ;) So 22 it is. We need to infect the last 2 civs with Hinduism and get somebody to like us enough to vote for us. How tough can it be? :) We whip an army, march to Satsuma, capture it, wait for it to come out of revolt, build a caravel (or two), and set sail. Too tight a schedule? Let's try to work it out.

First question to this would be - IF there is no route via Satsuma, what situation are we in then.
 
Just to focus things a little bit, I think we should figure out how to win in 22 turns. It can't be 12 because in 12 turns we'll have another AP election. ;) So 22 it is. We need to infect the last 2 civs with Hinduism and get somebody to like us enough to vote for us. How tough can it be? :) We whip an army, march to Satsuma, capture it, wait for it to come out of revolt, build a caravel (or two), and set sail. Too tight a schedule? Let's try to work it out.

I was thinking more along these lines: If we can get OB with MM/HC, we should be able to put some missionaries in Satsuma, Ulundi, Persiopolis and ask Scotty to beam them over with the teleporter. Close borders in succession, and the "only" place they could go would be HC/MM territory. But must get OB for that to work. Are we lucky enough for them to DOW Hatty any time soon? :scan:

Not sure how the OB are to managed without that though.
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First thing I would do would be to sign DP with Shaka. That might push us over the top and make his map available (but I doubt it). It should cause a little bit of -diplo with his rivals, though. Second: close borders with Hatty to trap her stack on the wrong side of Babylon (It could also transport the missionary in Satsuma to somehwere nice). Third, DOW Hatty and capture her hindu cities, then use the AP to get everyone else involved -- is that possible in the 2 turns to the vote? I doubt it. Hmmm...

I think we'll have to handle Hatty alone for a while to get Satsuma, but that should be possible. (Tokyo/Lahore had like 3 units in each, LB/mace that level. We have many more units in Kyoto and we have grens. :D

Tech Liberalism manually, and gift it around, even to non-FT's, but not to WE's... hope HC goes into Free Religion and then will open borders. (OB from them means Teleport if possible and end the game). Steal targets: Sci Meth, Phys (make airships if we haven't bought a map by then), bulb/tech Elec, Radio, and all but 1t of Mass Media... start making a GE for the UN just in case. Make submarine at radio (but this has same obstacle as teleporting, need to get the OB.

The only way to win in 22t is to get OB and be successful in teleportation.. gift the telported missionaries. Make Shaka Friendly.... might have to get in on another war for that, or DP might be enough. Then whip our cities down to 74.999% (or gift to Shaka) of the AP vote tally, choose Diplomatic Victory, get ours and Shaka's vote and win.

I think we should make contingencies for doing it in 32t. ;)


Note.... Liz went into Free Trade. Lets get her back in Merc ASAP (spy in Kago has enough EP and -30% bonus already, cost would be 342EP right now, and we should do before others follow her lead, not wait for -50% to save another 60EP).

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Another aside... we can probably tech faster than any of the AI right now. 69t to Mass Media for us at sustainable 70% slider... without bulbs, without unis/observatories, without Oxford. Much faster with those. A more sure way to win at a more predictable time is the UN route. Start a war on HC/MM 1t before an AP vote that will let us get everyone else in on the war. After the resolution is passed and results are announced, we finish Mass Media. Nobody is going to get bigger than HC/MM, and they will be our opponent and get only their own votes in UN. We should be Friendly by then, but we'd need probaly 3AI to be friendly (unlike the AP which would require only 1).

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Note, in order to get SciMeth by tech or steal, we need Astro, which requires Calandar. Might need astro for ships if we take Satsuma and must invade HC, anyhow.

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Note, Liz was Teching Physics (while I saved for stealing Chemistry) and Constitution (just before I stole PPr at the end of set).
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To answer Vra... if the teleporting fails and there is now way in from Satsuma (and/or no way in to Mansa except through Shaka or GK), then the UN becomes the fastest victory possible, imo.

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Note, the clock is ticking... if someone not HC/MM gets the UN, we are in very deep trouble. And if HC/MM beat us to it, we need to take over a lot of pop to become #2.

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In Babylon I would plan for Walls-Castle (i.e. we don't want Economics) for maxing EP production there, as well as making it a bastion against Hatty's lost army. First HMon for culture to hold the corn+copper. Make a fishing boat in some other coastal city ASAP to get Babylon back its fish.
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After putting Liz in Merc, (check if you can get her map then) I'd also put her in Org Rel, and spread Hindu to Kago. That will make stealing missions a lot cheaper.
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Spy who stole Chem was caught in the act... but still showing no negatives with Liz for spy troubles. Only Cyrus is showing -1 to us for spy trouble.
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If forced to choose sides in Cyrus/GK war... it is slightly less harmful to our cause to choose GK's side. Stp trading demands are OK either way... but could mess up the teleportation scheme. Deny the first demands, and then assume the other is a better one to cave in to?
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So far there have been remarkably few demands/requests made by anyone... very odd.

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Right now as I see it Liz and Shaka are the primary Friend Targets (FT's). Secondary FT's are Cyrus + GK. We need to either make nice or join war with HC/MM to get OB, though. Or find a way to enter their borders militarily.

Vote count:
US 270
Liz 17
Hatty 15
Shaka 15
Cryus 9
GK 6

Votes needed for diplo victory: 249.
 
Did anybody else notice that Cyrus switch to Theocracy IBT after infecting? Closing the barn door after the cows have escaped?
 
Yes, getting OBs with MM/HC is the sticking point. And a prior possible sticking point is finding out how to access their land. How about if we try the plop-a-city-in-Egypt ploy ASAP? Even if we don't get OBs or a map we can explore their coast and see what's needed to get in. That means putting EPs on Hatty (but switch Liz back to Merc first) and getting multiple spies positioned in Thebes and Memphis--we have to revolt both cities at once. To keep our plopped city from revolting and joining Egypt we need to put a big stack in it, which will be very handy if/when we attack Hatty. We'll also need 3 workers to chop that last forest in 1 turn.

In the north, remember that we have a Warlord CG3/Drill2 Xbow who can be instantly upgraded to a gren--he could probably defend Babylon single handed ;) so more units could be diverted to defend Vijay or wipe out Hatty on "our" side of Babylon. Likewise, our supermedic should probably make his way east since if we go to war with Hatty he'll be vital for healing in Egyptian lands.

2 weeks and 1 day until the deadline.

I'd really like to make the Religion win work--UN will just take too long, though it's a good fallback.
 
OK, lets think about the Devious City (DC) plopping.

Tech for Religious VC not an issue... lets do Calandar and Astronomy at 0% research (about 9 turns total), and EP slider at 70% (or whatever max sustainable is) all on Hatty. If at war with Hatty later, spy revolts are really fast compared to treb seige. ;)

Build more spies near our borders and near Kago. HMiss heading north (towards Persia) can reroute to GK if we get OB, back to the DC site if not. 3 Hmiss needed, and they need to be where they can get to HC and to MM. That's game over.

I think were up to about 350EP/t at that setting, and city revolt should cost guessing something around 1500EP in each city, -50% discount. So if all works out, it would take about 5t to accumulate the EP, and 5t to have the spy sit.

The EP on Liz can be used to flip her to Merc right now at 30% discount... then if there's enough left steal calander or something else. Then all spies to the Egypt cities that open that window of opportunity. At least two to each city, in case one fails.

Contingencies: HMiss should go with stack and settler to that spot. This city does not need to be Hindu, but you never know... if Inca culture covered that tile we could gift it. If the settling goes as plans, he'd be the first passenger on a whipped caravel. And one could check whether HC or MM would take the city as a gift... might solve half the problem, but best wait until the caravel is made.

After caravel loaded with HMiss, it might be possible to gift city to one and get OB from that then use the Hmiss/caravel to infect the other. (OB with one on team is OB with all).

If we can get to HC, we might need to do this again in the North to get to MM, but I doubt it.... looks clear of ice on the east coast. The caravel would be enough.

I suggest we start gifting some resources to HC and maybe MM as well... stone and marble are good, but have to cancel some cash deals that are ongoing.

I didn't upgrade the XBow to a gren yet, because doing so makes it impossible to upgrade to a rifle, but I think a gren is what we want. Fighting was over by the time I got MilSci anyhow. Upgrade now.

Another question... maybe we are being stupid here... how much EP on MM cities and HC cities do we need for the passive ability to see their city? I think its a lot less than what we need to flip 2 Egypt cities. So once we feel comfortable that we have plenty EP on Hatty, might be good to put it all on MM, and then all on HC, and see their cities. Faster than airships, for sure.

I think Shaka will be the Primary Friendly Target. Say yes to all his demands except the ones which would end the game (switch religion, switch to free religion)... but do not say yes to things that will bug HC/MM until we've gotten OB there.

If he makes demands we can't accept, then we still have our Secondary FT, Liz. In Merc, she will be up to +7, and with FR, she will go up to about +10. We can perhaps gift her back Agra and get another +2?

Did I mention that I was given the options of keeping or disbanding Agra? I kept it, obviously. Hope you guys are OK with that.

The Third FT is Cyrus, or GK. Won't do anything to actively anger them, but only rely on one of them for Friend if the demands/wars mess up out primary and secondary both... which is unlikely, but still likely enough to worry about.

One aside.... another way to get rid of the -2 close borders would be to assign Kago back to us in 2t. Not sure whate else we would do with that vote... maybe if Tokyo is back on the table that's better. Note, voting to force Liz to give us a city would cost us a -2 (you voted against us), so until her borders issues gets above -3, we don't gain much (trade a growing irritation for a decaying one of same present value). Better just to flip Kago with culture... hiring artists nearby might be enough.

I guess we don't close borders with Hatty because we'll want to shuttle HMisses there.

If we do get OB with HC/MM before the plan is executed, we will at least try in GK-land the teleportation to MM. If that works, we could decide whether the city settling or teleportation is more reliable way to do it.

Who's up? Trystero? Steelhorse? Someone else?

From now on, we should pause for AP assessment frequently... although the election probably doesn't need to be treated that way.

Don't give away stuff for diplo points if we already have max diplo for fair trading (+4). Maybe we'd get the "You shared your technology" bonus, but maybe not. We are waiting for Merc bonus to mature some more, OB bonus to mature some more, and teh gods of Hindu willing... Free Religion to eliminate the big minus diplo (as well as end the Bhudist love-fest). If that isn't enough, we will need to bribe our FT into attacking someone they don't like, and then DOW them ourselves. That will do it.
 
We have the option of going into Free Religion and doing it ourselves though, don't we?

We can't go into FR because we must keep Hinduism as our state religion the entire game.
 
The rules say Hinduism must be our "first and only state religion." I believe "Free Religion" counts as "no state religion." (?) You'd think this would have been explicitly addressed in the Maintenance thread but I don't see anything. In any case, I think we have been (correctly) assuming that we can NOT change to Free Religion at any time.

Which brings up the point--that I think has been made before--that we can not use espi to switch anybody into Free Religion (because we'd have to be running that ourselves, which is not allowed).

I haven't studied kcd's plan closely, but I think that's the basic idea. Except that building a trireme and upgrading it to a caravel might be faster.

Who will play? If everybody is really swamped (grumble grumble) I will likely be home most of the day Tuesday, so I could do it. Somebody else should enjoy the fun, though.
 
I think vra379971 is up, but I can play if needed. I will need to look over everything that has been discussed very carefully if I am taking it from here.
 
The rules say Hinduism must be our "first and only state religion." I believe "Free Religion" counts as "no state religion." (?) You'd think this would have been explicitly addressed in the Maintenance thread but I don't see anything. In any case, I think we have been (correctly) assuming that we can NOT change to Free Religion at any time.

Which brings up the point--that I think has been made before--that we can not use espi to switch anybody into Free Religion (because we'd have to be running that ourselves, which is not allowed).

I haven't studied kcd's plan closely, but I think that's the basic idea. Except that building a trireme and upgrading it to a caravel might be faster.

Who will play? If everybody is really swamped (grumble grumble) I will likely be home most of the day Tuesday, so I could do it. Somebody else should enjoy the fun, though.

I think Deckhand pushed the "Free Religion" question and got the answer already that it is NOT permissible to use Free Religion since it forces your civ into "No State Religion".


We need more eyes and hands in on the save to avoid missing something. Lets let Trystero take it, and XCal can make a PPP for him by plucking the relevant stuff out of the last few posts to help him get going faster. Since I wrote a lots of ideas, not all of which are compatible with each other, its best if someone else handles the assembling of the PPP from that, since I do not know my own blind spots. For example:

Two things left out in discussion so far: (1) XCals idea to have 3 workers in the DC-plop party to sit on the forest next to the city site and chop in one turn when the city is founded. (2) Tech path cannot go through Astro before we make a trireme for upgrade to caravel. Astro means we can only build Frigates and Galleons (and pirates).

Also, I am worried that we have not seen any MM/HC naval units anywhere. We've had that coast under surveillance for a while, too. This means either Neil settled them 1-tile away from the sea and they cannot build ships, or else they are iced in, and require submarines to reach (paratroopers/nukes for the militarists). We should have contingency to make concerted tech push -- we have a saved GSci for bulbing Electricity (or Physics) and can get more of them, even a GA can be useful to bulb Radio.

That would put us at Radio, a very short hop to Mass Media. Figure the UN comes into play whether we build it or not, but we should be safe from Diplo defeat by then and can get +2 for voting for someone else, so religion VC would still probably be fastest for us.

We are going to piss off Hatty... and if she DOWs us we need to take back her Hindu cities (Tokyo and Lahore) and force a hindu holy war on her. We are poised to kick her butt off the entire map with a bit of upgrading, I might add. :D
 
We need more eyes and hands in on the save to avoid missing something. Lets let Trystero take it, and XCal can make a PPP for him by plucking the relevant stuff out of the last few posts to help him get going faster.

This is fine with me. I should have time to look carefully at the save tonight. I get the gist of what we are trying to accomplish, but so many ideas have been tossed about, it would take me a while to work out the details for a PPP.
 
Thanks, Trys. vra is a coward! ;) Being afraid of messing it up terribly didn't stop me!

I'll need to look at things again (tonight) for a PPP. Trys should work on one, too, so that we can combine and hopefully not miss too much. I'm still not sure which is better: Devious City or March to Satsuma. DC will use up a chunk of our commerce for EPs to flip Hatty's cities, but we won't have to wait to assemble an army. The March is conceptually simpler, and we could use the commerce that would otherwise go to EPs for research (or unit upgrades?), but we'll need quite a few more units. And instead of putting hammers into units, we could put those hammers into building gold, etc. Lots of tradeoffs, but I guess the main considerations are how quickly we can (1) see what MM/HC's land looks like and (2) infect them, if possible, with Hinduism. Getting a map would make life so much easier--what a pity that isn't one of the espi mission options!
 
Thanks, Trys. vra is a coward! ;) Being afraid of messing it up terribly didn't stop me!

I'll need to look at things again (tonight) for a PPP. Trys should work on one, too, so that we can combine and hopefully not miss too much. I'm still not sure which is better: Devious City or March to Satsuma. DC will use up a chunk of our commerce for EPs to flip Hatty's cities, but we won't have to wait to assemble an army. The March is conceptually simpler, and we could use the commerce that would otherwise go to EPs for research (or unit upgrades?), but we'll need quite a few more units. And instead of putting hammers into units, we could put those hammers into building gold, etc. Lots of tradeoffs, but I guess the main considerations are how quickly we can (1) see what MM/HC's land looks like and (2) infect them, if possible, with Hinduism. Getting a map would make life so much easier--what a pity that isn't one of the espi mission options!

Yeah, it seems you cannot get city visiblity by esp until you have unfogged the cities.:(

In my mind, the benefit of the DC versus march to Satsuma is that we do not have to suffer a -2 "you declared war on our friend" penalty, and a potential turn-saver. I can't really see any other benefit.

March to Satsuma would give us a much more permanent base to work from, for example if we had to use paratroopers or submarines, we'll need to go this way anyhow. joint war on Hatty would give us +diplo with someone if we make it a joint war.

The same amount of turns to assemble EP against Hatty could be used to assemble gold for upgrades. The number of troops in Kyoto and Drona are already adequate for the job. Hatty's stack is in the west, and we can block it from returning home if we dow real quick.

The AP would let us get the whole gang in on it if we take Tokyo and Lahore before the vote in 2 turns, but that will not be possible. And then there is an election 10 turns later, and then we could do it in 10 more turns, and then a diplo vote 10 more turns. But I think we could in 2t use the AP to end the (phony) war between GK/Cyrus and try to bribe GK into war against Hatty. Also Shaka and Liz, if we have anything to offer.

the reason I go along with the DC, is that we can anyhow do the march to satsuma by t+42 if needed, but the DC at least provides a chance of winning earlier.

Note, if HC/MM DOW someone it should be GK or most likely Hatty or possibly Shaka. If that occurs, we should pause and decide whether we dow as well, to get OB with team HC/MM. So the march to satsuma might happen anyhow, and since her cities around there have no more than 3-4 units each (LB's and mace, maybe some knoghts) we should make quick work of it.

Lets proceed with the DC like we mean it, but realize that the chances of winning in 22t is very slim. We should take a short pause each time some key event occurs: DC founded, HC/MM dow someone, we get OB with HC/MM (for teleportation possibility)some other way, etc.

Anyhow, I think the first thing is to 1) flip Liz back to merc, 2) sign DP with shaka and see if he'll trade map and do so if yes, and 3) shift EP to Hatty, set at max. All before we end this turn. Change tech to liberalism (avoid making astro bulbable) and gift free religion making tech freely.

Upgrade units as we go, and build more units. Get the mishes where they need to be. etc etc...

BTW: The real reason I won't write the PPP is that I don't want to wake up at 4am again thinking, OMG! we can't build caravels if we tech Astro!!! :lol: Are we having fun yet or what! :D
 
Ooops. Discovered a "concern" while writing up the PPP. It will take awhile to build the ship in DC. It's 50 hammers to build a trireme, which we then upgrade to a 60-hammer caravel. (Galleys are also 50 hammers, but upgrade to galleons, which require Astro.) The forest, assuming it's still there, gives us 30 hammers. The plains hill mine will give us 4hpt, but only until Memphis and Thebes come out of revolt, which is one turn (I'm pretty sure). And we get 1hpt from the city center, so that's 35 hammers the first turn. But then it'll take 8 more turns (with just the city center and an unplaced citizen) to finish. :( We could make her cities revolt again, gaining us 5 (instead of 2) hpt each time. A second revolt would cut build time by 2 turns (from 9 to 7). And then one more turn to pay for the upgrade, so 10 or 8 turns total. Are we that patient? If the forest is gone, I'd say we should drop this idea, so we'll need to keep an eye on that with a unit watching.
 
Draft PPP

FT= Friend Target. Civs we would like to vote for our victory. Roughly in order of Shaka, Liz, Cyrus/Genghi.
DC = Devious City.
WE = Worst Enemy (of an AI).
DP = Defensive Pact. Nullified if anyone in the pact DoWs somebody.

DONT's
  • Do not close borders with Hatty! We need them open to try the DC ploy.
  • Do not research Astro! (Uh, remind me why not? Galleys and triremes both cost the same--50 hammers. Galleys upgrade to galleons (requiring Astro) and triremes to caravels. I believe (?) that you can still build caravels even after Astro, but that doesn't matter here, does it?)
DO's
  • Do spread Hinduism to MM and HC.
  • Do try to get maps showing HC/MM land.
  • Do get and spread Liberalism (so AIs will adopt Free Religion and stop hating us Hindus).
  • Do try to keep everyone in Mercantilism (for favorite civic diplo points). Even non-FTs (but not Worst Enemies of any potential FTs), since the attraction of Free Market grows as more people adopt it.
  • Do keep a spy in place with each civ to flip them back into Merc'lism if needed. (Is this worth the danger of spies being caught?) Don't direct any EPs toward them until necessary, however.
Assume until proven otherwise that we can infect MM/HC using caravels. That means little emphasis on research (e.g., no whipping uni's for Oxford) other than to get Liberalism and give/trade it to the AI and hope they adopt Free Religion.

Do immediately:
  • Make Defensive Pact with Shaka--then see if he'll trade us his map.
  • Flip Liz (in Kago) back to Merc'lism--then see if she'll trade us her map.
  • Put EPs on Hatty, with high slider. I think we'll need around 1000 EPs total to make Memphis and Thebes revolt after a few turns of sitting spies.
  • Send at least 2 spies to each city so they can start sitting. I'd prefer 3 each. And more if we decide we need to cut the caravel build-time with another revolt. That would, of course, require more EPs.
  • Build a settler for the DC ploy.

Plan for Devious City:
  • Abort mission if the required forest gets chopped--monitor this starting now.
  • Spies should be pre-placed in Thebes and Memphis ASAP. (Don't wait for the full 5-turn discount if you're otherwise ready to go on the revolts.)
  • Assemble 3 workers to chop forest in 1 turn.
  • Assemble units to prevent revolt. (How many? 10?)
  • Assemble settler.
  • Assemble 2 Hmiss's (one as backup for caravel).
  • Move them all (don't delay for stragglers) to the site SE of Memphis/Thebes next to the forest (hope it's still there). Cause Mem/Theb to revolt, settle, chop, work hill mine. We will have 30+4hill+1CC= 35 hammers the first turn toward a trireme. Triremes are 50 hammers, caravels are 60. We will build a trireme and then upgrade it to a caravel (for 30ish gold).
  • Our stack will (?) prevent revolt in DC, but Egyptian culture will take away all but the City Center tile the next turn, giving us 2 hpt (from CC and a citizen). That means another 8 turns to finish, or 6 if we create another 2-city revolt.
  • Do we gift/abandon the city after the caravel is built?

Other stuff:
  • Build more units. Maybe upgrade a few with high XPs. Have enough in both the North and East to deal with Hatty.
  • After Lib'ism, maybe research Calendar (for bananas plantation--although we can probably trade for this) or continue on the military line (rifles, cannon, cavalry).
  • Balance EPs. We need enough to cause Hatty's cities to revolt (but not until our units are in place). We want to continue to steal techs from Liz (and Kago might be in danger of flipping to us so there's some urgency??). We don't want EPs to go to waste when we could be using our commerce for research or unit upgrades. Keep an eye on what Liz is researching. Don't research stuff we could get in favorable trades or that we could steal (if it would be cheaper that way).
  • Walls and maybe castle in Babylon would be useful if we go to war with Hatty. Both have stone bonus. Castles can't be built after Economics. Both are obsolete against gunpowder units.
  • Keep in mind that Babylon and Bombay each have 2 settled GGs (for extra XPs).
  • AP vote comes up in 2 turns. Election is 10 turns after that.
  • After walls (and castle?) are built, consider trading away stone if that would be useful. In general, use resource trades to gain favor with FTs and/or to gain gold.
  • If we don't have Htemples in all our cities already, build them (2gpt, 2bpt, 2hpt pays off quickly). Monasteries probably not worth it at this point unless they can be built very quickly. Assess commerce|beaker multiplier buildings' value versus building wealth. Or versus building units.
  • Always have enough spies, in or near locations where they will/might be needed.
  • Have Hmiss's ready to go.
  • Keep an eye on the Diplo/Info screen to see what civics the AI are running--keep FTs (at least) in Merc'lism. Note if they switch to Free Religion.
  • Always be aware of the general diplo situation--who is whose WE, etc.
 
DC looks like the best option we have. Good work on all the analysis Xcal and kcd :goodjob:

Not a whole lot to add. kcd - you mentioned gifting agra back to Liz. Is there any downside there? + diplo and cheaper missionary missions seem like a win. And it is a net drain on the economy.

The closed borders between MM/HC and the rest of the AI, is that an indicator that there are no water path for commerce between them?
 
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