What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders...

[Jatta Pake]

What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders to start modding Civ5? It's a better game now after G&K expansion. It's like you all are programming for XP after Wndows 7 release. I get it that Vista (Vanilla Civ 5) was terribly disappointing, but G&K changed the game.

Some of you need to get over the lack of unit stacking. You can't stack units in Chess, and that game has been around for 100s of years. Civ5:G&K is so much more chess-like with its combat system, and it eliminates tedious micromagement. I want to lead great civilizations, not train for a career in logistics.

Not trying to insult or start a flame war, I liked Civ 4. But with you guys modding Civ 5, it has so much potential for seriously awesome games. The Civ 4 mods are amazing.

 

[Voyhkah]

What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders to start modding Civ5? It's a better game now after G&K expansion. It's like you all are programming for XP after Wndows 7 release. I get it that Vista (Vanilla Civ 5) was terribly disappointing, but G&K changed the game.

Maybe I should get GaK and see if I think it's better. The main problems I had with CiV were:
a. It was not fun
b. The modding system made me vomit
c. The system where all unit attributes were determined by promotions was f**king incomprehensible.

If GaK got rid of that hypermodlar 'modbuddy'-requiring 'modfile' crap, then we can talk.

Some of you need to get over the lack of unit stacking. You can't stack units in Chess, and that game has been around for 100s of years. Civ5:G&K is so much more chess-like with its combat system, and it eliminates tedious micromagement. I want to lead great civilizations, not train for a career in logistics.

The lack of stacking was not my problem with CiV. I don't know about anyone else, but I had little to no objections with the system. And by the way, there's a saying that 'The new commanders talk about strategy, the veteran commanders talk about logistics.'

Not trying to insult or start a flame war, I liked Civ 4. But with you guys modding Civ 5, it has so much potential for seriously awesome games. The Civ 4 mods are amazing.

It could, in theory, result in some pretty awesome games. I suppose someone could, in theory, fix many of the major problems we had with the game. It would be a big job, though, and I'm not going to be the one doing it. That's assuming they released the source code. Oh, they didn't? Wow! That's a deal-killer.

Look at my mod thread! Much of the stuff I'm doing with Civ4 ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES access to the source code!
Bye!

 

[cpt.tripps.2012]

I definitely want to start working on modding CIV5 and I already have a great concept for it...

BUT ...

Right now I am trying to finish the mod I've been working on for CIV4 for over 8 months now. I am getting very close, but still have a few hang ups (see spaceship graphics thread). After that I have a few game play mechanics tweeks I have to do, then about 1-2 months of graphics work. After that It will be CIV5 from then on.

 

[platyping]

So... has the AI grown brains, or is it still the same "3 Archers can defend against a whole battalion at a chokepoint" style?

Some of the concepts of CiV are good.
But without decent AI, it is pretty much pokemon

 

[Jatta Pake]

So... has the AI grown brains, or is it still the same "3 Archers can defend against a whole battalion at a chokepoint" style?

Some of the concepts of CiV are good.
But without decent AI, it is pretty much pokemon

AI is much different now, and I would say "harder" but it is far from a dynamic learning AI at gets better with play. That would be cool.

Rather than endlessly charging into a meat grinding ambush or choke point the AI will retreat. Some would say it retreats too much when it abandons defense of its capital. My strategies have expanded greatly as the AI is able to plan a significant invasion by land and sea. AI has improved but is it enough? It is for me.

 

[platyping]

Frankly speaking, I do believe it is the 1UPT and range combat together which kills the AI.
All those new stuff like social policies, hex tiles, buy tiles/units/buildings etc are not such a big issue since AI knows how to do that.

It is not that CIV AI has more brains than CiV AI. It is just that AI does not need that much brains in CIV. In CIV all the AI needs to know is build 100 units, and move them in the same tile.
That will be enough to put up a decent fight.
In CiV the AI still builds 100 units, but due to the 2 combat systems, 100 units will still lose to less than 5 units. Although you mentioned that now they know how to retreat, but if 100 units cannot win a battle against 5 units and have to retreat, it is still not good enough.

Although with the new systems in G&K, you no longer gets some issues like 10 archers to kill 1 tank due to more HP now, when the technology difference is not so vast, AI still cannot put up a decent fight, which is crucial to making interesting game.

Also, like what Voyhkah mentioned, there are more things we can mod in CIV here.
I for instance, makes wonders with effects not available in normal CIV games.
In CiV, all I see there are new wonders with new artwork and new text files.

 

[ls612]

What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders to start modding Civ5?

The DLL sourcecode (or lack thereof) has been a real showstopper for CiV modding. That and the modbuddy is stupid.

 

[Padjur]

You can't stack units in Chess, and that game has been around for 100s of years. Civ5:G&K is so much more chess-like with its combat system, and it eliminates tedious micromagement. I want to lead great civilizations, not train for a career in logistics.

Chess?

Logistics is everything in warfare as is micromanagement, For me Civ5 is Civ for dummies, oh and they haven't released the code, so nothing doing.

 

[Voyhkah]

The DLL sourcecode (or lack thereof) has been a real showstopper for CiV modding. That and the modbuddy is stupid.

Chess?

Logistics is everything in warfare as is micromanagement, For me Civ5 is Civ for dummies, oh and they haven't released the code, so nothing doing.

Micromanagement can be annoying, but you're definitely right about logistics, as I had stated previously.

(Actually, I'm having serious problems eliminating resource micromanagement, which could triple the amount of microing necessary, in my Resource Stockpiling mod. Which, intrestingly enough, is a mod that could not be made for CiV because the source has not been released!)

 

[Mouthwash]

What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders to start modding Civ5? It's a better game now after G&K expansion. It's like you all are programming for XP after Wndows 7 release. I get it that Vista (Vanilla Civ 5) was terribly disappointing, but G&K changed the game.

Some of you need to get over the lack of unit stacking. You can't stack units in Chess, and that game has been around for 100s of years. Civ5:G&K is so much more chess-like with its combat system, and it eliminates tedious micromagement. I want to lead great civilizations, not train for a career in logistics.

Not trying to insult or start a flame war, I liked Civ 4. But with you guys modding Civ 5, it has so much potential for seriously awesome games. The Civ 4 mods are amazing.

Are you seriously serious right now?

Tactics are about application of force. Chess is inherently flexible. Civilization is not. Using stacks but adding strategic elements (surround and destroy, promotions, terrain defense) adds so much more depth and realism than breaking the game with 1UPT. And G&K sucks to the bottom of the ocean; I've tried the demo.

 

[primem0ver]

Have they stopped using Steam? No? Well then I refuse. I will not bow to steam. Civ V was my first and LAST experience with that piece of crap. I don't care how much I like a game. I will never buy it if it uses steam.

 

[Leoreth]

Some of you need to get over the lack of unit stacking. You can't stack units in Chess, and that game has been around for 100s of years. Civ5:G&K is so much more chess-like with its combat system, and it eliminates tedious micromagement. I want to lead great civilizations, not train for a career in logistics.

Your comparison with chess shows the problem with Civ5. Chess is a tactics game. Civilization is a strategy games series, of which Civ4 is a fantastic incarnation. Civ5 is what happens if someone who likes Panzer General too much tries to shoehorn its inherently tactics-oriented premise into a strategy game.

Civ5 has a lot of design problems, some of which have been addressed by G&K, others haven't (like the atrocious AI). But that's not the problem. The problem is that Civ5's premise is inherently flawed and there's no amount of addons that could fix this.

Frankly, I think if there's anything in Civ5 that's better than in Civ4, it's more worthwhile to implement it in Civ4 than to switch to Civ5. I for one am fairly certain that thanks to the C&C community Civ4 will outlive Civ5.

 

[mourndraken]

Have they stopped using Steam? No? Well then I refuse. I will not bow to steam. Civ V was my first and LAST experience with that piece of crap. I don't care how much I like a game. I will never buy it if it uses steam.

this

 

[primem0ver]

Not trying to insult or start a flame war, I liked Civ 4. But with you guys modding Civ 5, it has so much potential for seriously awesome games. The Civ 4 mods are amazing.

I didn't realize they hadn't released the Civ V dll source code. I thought they had just postponed it. (Yes... that's how quickly I was turned off by steam... I wasted $50... never got past loading the game a single time or two).

I hate to disappoint you but with that being true, nothing could be further from the truth than this statement. Civ5 Does not have near the potential as Civ IV without the ability to change the source code.

My guess is that you don't do much modding if any. Either that or you have never tried a mod beyond changing stats or graphics. ALL of those "amazing modders" you want were only able to do what they did because they could alter the source code. Mods can be good without an SDK. But not amazing.

 

[ls612]

I didn't realize they hadn't released the Civ V dll source code. I thought they had just postponed it. (Yes... that's how quickly I was turned off by steam... I wasted $50... never got past loading the game a single time or two).

I hate to disappoint you but with that being true, nothing could be further from the truth than this statement. Civ5 Does not have near the potential as Civ IV without the ability to change the source code.

My guess is that you don't do much modding if any. Either that or you have never tried a mod beyond changing stats or graphics. ALL of those "amazing modders" you want were only able to do what they did because they could alter the source code. Mods can be good without an SDK. But not amazing.

Yeah, if we had the SDK we could remove annoying things like the UPT limit, and maybe make CiV a half-decent game. At the very least it would give us a much better engine to work on, with 64 bit capabilities and Multi-threading.

 

[Jatta Pake]

Wasn't it after BTS that they released the Civ 4 source code? Isn't reasonable to expect that they will eventually release the Civ 5 source code?

It seems like some of you plan to mod Civ 5 when the source code is finally released. Others seem like they will never mod Civ 5 out of hatred for Steam or overall annoyance with Civ 5 design elements.

Chess tactics vs. Strategy: One unit per tile isn't inherently tactics. Civ 5 blends a fun combat system with a fun city building system. Micromanaging minutia isn't strategy, and it isn't fun for most humans. Real war may be comprised of details and logistics, true. But Civ isn't a simulation. And real war is also comprised of horrific consequences. Using this argument, for mods to be real, they should also include a system that forces you to plan in minute detail the funeral of your son.

Successful mods appeal to a broad audience, and they are fun. Most people want to play civilization-style games that give them decision points that matter, while also providing a competitive environment to play.

This isn't to say mods that greatly expand detail aren't fun. I just think the "detail" needs to have meaningful change.

 

[Voyhkah]

Wasn't it after BTS that they released the Civ 4 source code? Isn't reasonable to expect that they will eventually release the Civ 5 source code?

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

It seems like some of you plan to mod Civ 5 when the source code is finally released. Others seem like they will never mod Civ 5 out of hatred for Steam or overall annoyance with Civ 5 design elements.

I don't think many of us will mod CiV even if the source is released as long as that ^*$@ modbuddy is still around. I'm waiting for Civ6.

Successful mods appeal to a broad audience, and they are fun. Most people want to play civilization-style games that give them decision points that matter, while also providing a competitive environment to play.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

This isn't to say mods that greatly expand detail aren't fun. I just think the "detail" needs to have meaningful change.

Funny... I actually agree with that... Maybe I'm just misinterpreting you. Did you mean that you agree with this?

 

[Padjur]

What will get all you amazing Civ4 modders to start modding Civ5?
But with you guys modding Civ 5, it has so much potential for seriously awesome games. The Civ 4 mods are amazing.

Successful mods appeal to a broad audience, and they are fun. Most people want to play civilization-style games that give them decision points that matter, while also providing a competitive environment to play.

This isn't to say mods that greatly expand detail aren't fun. I just think the "detail" needs to have meaningful change.

You started by asking what will get us to mod Civ5 and telling us that civ4 mods are amazing but end by giving us a lecture on how to mod.
If you like civ5 fine enjoy, personally I find it to be a repetitive, over simplified, mind numbing tedium, rather like chess.
But ultimately unless I have the SDK ( to make it more like
BTS or Conquests) its thanks but no thanks.

 

[Leoreth]

Wasn't it after BTS that they released the Civ 4 source code? Isn't reasonable to expect that they will eventually release the Civ 5 source code?

Since I'm mostly familiar with RFC modding, I can tell you that there was an RFC for Civ4 vanilla, so that is not true. Iirc the Civ4 SDK was released shortly after the game itself, maybe even with the release patch.

Chess tactics vs. Strategy: One unit per tile isn't inherently tactics. Civ 5 blends a fun combat system with a fun city building system. Micromanaging minutia isn't strategy, and it isn't fun for most humans. Real war may be comprised of details and logistics, true. But Civ isn't a simulation. And real war is also comprised of horrific consequences. Using this argument, for mods to be real, they should also include a system that forces you to plan in minute detail the funeral of your son.

Making false analogies and employing the false dichotomy fallacy isn't going to help your argument here. I agree 1UPT isn't inherently tactics, but it's quite inarguable that many of Civ5's design decisions were made to introduce tactical elements and 1UPT is one of them.

Successful mods appeal to a broad audience, and they are fun. Most people want to play civilization-style games that give them decision points that matter, while also providing a competitive environment to play.

This isn't to say mods that greatly expand detail aren't fun. I just think the "detail" needs to have meaningful change.

You seem to operate under the false assumption that people who prefer Civ4 over Civ5 are enamored with pointless details and micromanagement, which is ridiculous. Actually you could very well say that the tactical style of warfare in Civ5 has introduced more minutiae into this aspect of the game (positioning of units and whatnot). Civ4 didn't have extensive micromanagement, it really didn't. No offense, but if you think that's the case maybe 4X games aren't the right genre for you. If you think city management, which is the most important aspect of actually building a civilization under the mechanics of this game, is just an annoying factor that distracts you from warfare, you have missed the point of the series. As have the creators of Civ5.

 

[primem0ver]

Wasn't it after BTS that they released the Civ 4 source code?

I know for a fact that this is not true. I was on a team that had been working on the SDK since the release of Warlords. In addition, woodelf (one of the moderators here) made some comments on how he was trying to adapt some of my changes to the Vanilla SDK which leads me to believe it had already existed. Doing a quick internet search reveals that this is true. Wikipedia has the SDK release date of April, 2006 which was only just over five months after the game was first put on the market.

Civ 5 has been out for nearly two years (on the 21st of this month). You do the math.

Isn't reasonable to expect that they will eventually release the Civ 5 source code?

Anything is possible. That doesn't make it reasonable. Obama could change his mind about redistributing wealth. Romney could become an environmentalist. But I am not going to hold my breath.