Arabia to the stars (Goal:IMM fastest space colony)

[kossin]

You currently have 15 traderoutes from WvO + Darius for 9 cities.

15/9 = 1.67

Settle 2 island cities and you'll already have more traderoutes income.

You'll only lose resource deals.

EDIT: and basically, you're only getting 15C from those traderoutes compared to having no OB, since they're worth 2C each. Maybe you'll lose a bit of commerce for the turns you're at war, but surely, getting those juicy cities 5...10... 20 turns earlier is worth a LOT more than a few turns of traderoutes?

 

[Manco Capac]

Sixth Turnset ​

I left at Theo and a broken Willem. I think I'll go Theo, so I give it to a friendly AI to build the AP for me. Also Theo is 20% discount on Pater, thus less imposing detour. EDIT: Also, Hagia Sophia secured boosted with marble. That is GEngineer points. And given Willem lands and some eastern no man's lands have to be quickly improved, that would be in this situation a not too shabby wonder.


At 1 AD, I was at +244 btp IIRC. That's quite a strong economy and if I hadn't whipped, perhaps I would have reached near +300 bpt, which is considered a very strong tech rate.

Now, I target ~+500 bpt around 500 AD. And perhaps +1000 bpt around 1000 AD.

Seriously, where's Wang? And Willem has such ridiculous land stretches. On deity, I wouldn't imagine how strong he would have become.

Since I can be here at length. I drop a serie of pictures from Imgur.

T100​

Here first part.

Second part. EDIT: Friggin' small screen causes me problems with paint...because of scrolling. Pfft.

 

[Manco Capac]

Yay! The asteroid DA14 has not killed all of us. Otherwise, that would been a terrible gift for my birthday that occurs tomorrow, the 16th.

 

[kossin]

Good going.

You might want to reconsider building wealth at this point in time, there are many other things to do with your hammers. There are still 2-3 spots to settle and CH earlier are better than later.

Plus them Forges are usually good builds too An OR forge pays back quite fast.

You have some micro you may want to look at with your workers and cities.

 

[kossin]

Yay! The asteroid DA14 has not killed all of us. Otherwise, that would been a terrible gift for my birthday that occurs tomorrow, the 16th.

OT - Chelyabinsk, Russia

Spoiler :

EDIT: first video was removed, here's a compilation instead.

Link to video.

 

[Manco Capac]

^
Indeed, I shall start spreading Hindu to benefit of OR in all cities.
Forges also mean I can start in certain cities to stack up GEngineer GP, which may aver important if I fail in my main GEngineer city, hoping I'll get forge+HG+Hagia.

Indeed, once I switch back to slavery (I went caste system to trick Willem into this civic), I'll consider again peaceful expansion and infra. With what I have (~8 phants+~8 cats+3 axes) I can do serious damages to Willem and at least get his primary cities. What hurt Willem so badly is the fact he got that barb city, enabling him again into rexing mode and spreading his forces.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the support BIC and Kossin.
A bit disappointed though that even though we are into a SGOTM intercession, I don't see the usual SGOTM folks. Wished bcool joined too. Would have been interesting to see Gumbolt too.
Also wished other great players gave me some tips and criticisms. I'm sure there are holes in what I do somewhere.

You have some micro you may want to look at with your workers and cities.

Uncertain...you mean the massive arrival of cities will force me to make more workers...?

 

[Manco Capac]

OT - Chelyabinsk, Russia

Spoiler :

Link to video.

Yeah, I've heard of it in the comments about the bigger asteroid DA14 that some some russian caught pants down with unexpected fragments in Ural region.

EDIT: Holy cows. So weird to see that in real. Ah, good youtube times.

 

[Ringo Kid]

Sixth Turnset ​

I left at Theo and a broken Willem. I think I'll go Theo, so I give it to a friendly AI to build the AP for me. Also Theo is 20% discount on Pater, ....

....

Great thread, but I am perpetually confused by all the abbreviations -- what is pater again?

Idea; Perhaps there is a "thing" that could be added to the forum code that would allow people to type an abbreviation but have it read as the full word. Just a thought, sorry for the interruption.

 

[Manco Capac]

Myself I was confused until I read the post above; it was meant to be Paper tech.

 

[kossin]

^
Indeed, I shall start spreading Hindu to benefit of OR in all cities.
Forges also mean I can start in certain cities to stack up GEngineer GP, which may aver important if I fail in my main GEngineer city, hoping I'll get forge+HG+Hagia.

Indeed, once I switch back to slavery (I went caste system to trick Willem into this civic), I'll consider again peaceful expansion and infra. With what I have (~8 phants+~8 cats+3 axes) I can do serious damages to Willem and at least get his primary cities. What hurt Willem so badly is the fact he got that barb city, enabling him again into rexing mode and spreading his forces.

The thing is, those 25gpt you get from building wealth are good, but not that good. Those hammers converted into CH and Forge a few turns earlier can result in either:
-more OF hammers
-one less pop whip
-earlier infra

As you well know, whipping at low population is a better food->hammer conversion as well. Unless you have infinite 3F+ tiles to grow on... which you don't

Besides, you'll need military police for the future.

Uncertain...you mean the massive arrival of cities will force me to make more workers...?

From what I remember, for example...
2 better tiles in Mecca to be worked (silk and riverside cottage that's shared but unworked) over crappy brown cottages. If you were hammering out infra the Iron would need be considered as well...

Island city needs a worker badly but galley is going the other way. You're delaying its development considerably (mine copper and chop granary = big impact on development)

Overall, your cities are starting to outgrow their improved tiles. I don't quite understand why you went back to Caste after getting the GM.

 

[Manco Capac]

Overall, your cities are starting to outgrow their improved tiles. I don't quite understand why you went back to Caste after getting the GM.

It's a diplomatic move (I love spiritual!) which had a tremendous impact in my warring results.
Willem was PLEASED, allowing me to ask kindly some civic swap, but I need to be in Caste System first. BTS compared to its predecessor has a whipping unit function when stacks go by cities. Forcing him going caste means I neutralized him whipping units while standing by cities BFC. And as I expected from the code again, it's 300 AD, and he's still in caste No he has just got out last turn. I managed to even capture a city with 2 phants+axe, which wouldn't have happened if he could whip.

In 375 BC (T100), he made a personal decision of monarchy/OR swapping, which means it's hardcoded he'll take 25 turns before reconsidering swapping civics by his own decision. The "forced" swap of civic into Caste isn't accounted in such mechanics. Now, it's T127 (300 AD) [playing right now] and he has just swapped back into slavery last turn! T126-T100 = 25 turns. Q.E.D.

If I hadn't lost 2 phants at high odds (83% and 94%), right now, the efficiency would have been tremendous. Engineering rush wasn't needed. And anyways, Willem is slowly tech Engineering for me.

2 better tiles in Mecca to be worked (silk and riverside cottage that's shared but unworked) over crappy brown cottages. If you were hammering out infra the Iron would need be considered as well...

I always favor bureaucratic cottages over some weak tile like silk. I have pondered iron many times, but still I prefer my cottage over it. I want an Oxford there soon. Perhaps, I'll get Edu self-researched by 400-500 AD. And Wang Kon has 2 stone tiles!!! And I just secured Marble!

As you well know, whipping at low population is a better food->hammer conversion as well. Unless you have infinite 3F+ tiles to grow on... which you don't

Indeed. Duckweed was the first one who made me realize the strongest ratio is a 1 pop whip from size 2, giving something ~1.4 hammers per food w/o granary and 2.7 hammers/food with a granary.
Of course, 2 pop whips are preferable for less anger or 3 pop whips if necessary for big buildings like CHs or OR forges.

 

[kossin]

That's a good point

I bet you still are getting a very very high efficiency despite those 2 losses.

 

[Manco Capac]

It's unbelievable that I'm in 300 AD and still no one wants to start Feud. That made me looked for the diff. and albeit the situation, it's IMM. Ofc, I'm not gonna cap Willem. He'll rot in hell after getting free Eng. I want to harbor good relationships with those great friends.

I don't know who are oversea, but must been isolated AI's or really bad ones. The wonder expiration is extreme. I still can build the HG. Will force Wang to make peace with Willem, so I can get this juicy stone for both the wonder and Oxford.

 

[Manco Capac]

Seventh Turnset ​

For the moment being, I drop a save.
I forced Wang Kon to swap civics at the price of Paper and five turns in Theocracy and gamble next turn if I can whip the HG. I got it. +15 pop and free GEngineer points. Excellent.

Darius I built the GLib. He has to die for this affront, especially I could have built it in the next two turns now marble in inline.

Education is done in two turns.

Serie of screenshots:

PART#1
PART#2

 

[kossin]

I always favor bureaucratic cottages over some weak tile like silk. I have pondered iron many times, but still I prefer my cottage over it. I want an Oxford there soon.

Since both tiles are brown (1F1H), compare commerce:

Silk tile = 4C
Cottage = 1C (10 turns)
Hamlet = 2C (20 turns)
Village = 3C (40 turns) -- 4C with PP
Town = 4C -- 5C with PP -- 7C with FS+PP

It's been 16 turns since the last save... in the meantime you've grown from 13 -> 15, allowing you to work all of the new cottages AND the silk. Seeing your food surplus is +2 and you're at 43/50, I'll assume you've been size 15 for 9 turns (probably less).

By working the silk, you'd only delay the promotion of 1 cottage by 9 turns.

First 10 turns for silk:
+30C
Next 20 turns
+40C

I assume (again) that you might get PP before those 30 turns are done. So you're currently set back 70C (base).

A village with PP is worth the same as the silk tile... no loss here.

So you can only lose commerce for 9 turns (MAX) when the tile becomes a Town.

9 * (7-4) = 27C

Basically, you'd be at least 53C ahead if you worked the silk tile over those crappy cottage tiles.

The silk is mightier than the cottage

Indeed. Duckweed was the first one who made me realize the strongest ratio is a 1 pop whip from size 2, giving something ~1.4 hammers per food w/o granary and 2.7 hammers/food with a granary.
Of course, 2 pop whips are preferable for less anger or 3 pop whips if necessary for big buildings like CHs or OR forges.

2 -> 1 pop whip is the strongest direct food to hammer conversion.

However, it's not necessarily the best setup.

For instance, consider that you have 2 corns and unlimited happiness... would you still do 2->1 whips? Of course not.

Basically, you have to look at this ratio:

(food surplus)/(food to grow)

Food to grow is easy. With a granary, it's 10 + pop at normal speed. Kinda like y = x + 10

If your food surplus increases with each population, you'll notice that

(food surplus)/(food to grow) tends to 1... in fact increasing your whipping potential, because you re-grow faster.

If it feels a bit strange, think of a city with only farmed 3F green tiles and no resources. Whipping becomes better at larger sizes. (you can whip more often)

 

[kossin]

Seventh Turnset ​

[...]and gamble next turn if I can whip the HG. I got it. +15 pop and free GEngineer points. Excellent.

Don't have to gamble. Use your 2nd worker to finish the forest chop NW and micro in 10 base hammers.

40 * 2.25 = 90H
212+90 = 302...

Lend the corn to Delft for 1 turn and voila...

Some minor city micro that can be revised if you care to do it, f.e. Nijmegen.

 

[GKey]

You know, Kossin, would be precious, if you'd give us some screenies together with calculations. I'm staring at your math for like 30th time and still got no clue what do you mean.

So I keep employing intuition instead of exact case to case numbers.

 

[shakabrade]

@GKey

40 * 2.25 = 90H
212+90 = 302..

40 * 2.25 = (10 base hammers + forest chop) * (100% of base + 100% from stone + 25% from OR)


Regarding cottages, if your cottage didn't mature to village until Printing Press, you lose extra commerce from PP bonus. So, if you postpone a village, you lose commerce.
Also, you lose commerce regardless of PP if you don't work your cottage since it'll mature to town same number of turns later as number of turns you have not worked on it.

tl:dr
If you don't work on your cottage due to whipping or any other reason, you lose commerce from delaying cottage growth to more yielding stages.

 

[GKey]

Actually I meant this one:

Basically, you have to look at this ratio:

(food surplus)/(food to grow)

Food to grow is easy. With a granary, it's 10 + pop at normal speed. Kinda like y = x + 10

If your food surplus increases with each population, you'll notice that

(food surplus)/(food to grow) tends to 1... in fact increasing your whipping potential, because you re-grow faster.

If it feels a bit strange, think of a city with only farmed 3F green tiles and no resources. Whipping becomes better at larger sizes. (you can whip more often)

 

[GKey]

Regarding cottages, if your cottage didn't mature to village until Printing Press, you lose extra commerce from PP bonus. So, if you postpone a village, you lose commerce.
Also, you lose commerce regardless of PP if you don't work your cottage since it'll mature to town same number of turns later as number of turns you have not worked on it.

tl:dr
If you don't work on your cottage due to whipping or any other reason, you lose commerce from delaying cottage growth to more yielding stages.

But here Kossin's point was, it actually better to work Silk tile rather then growing plain cottage.

Reading Plastic Ducks strategy decisions is ultimate source of advanced knowledge, and I was trying for years, but there always is a point when I find myself not understanding these calculations.