Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond

[Caledorn]

I have some stuff I need to take off here, so I will be unable to give a long response here for a few more hours.

The short summary of my thoughts are that I am unsure what my own opinion is. I definitely feel we are entitled to get the stone immediately, but I also am very much in agreement with the sentiment that we should not push our luck. A possibility is to offer RB the loan of 1-2 of our workers for 1-2 turns to hook up the stone near Starfall (their new city) so they get it quicker in exchange for them giving us stone 4-6 turns from now. That way they will only be without stone themselves for 2-3 turns, which is exactly what we need to chop TGW.

 

[2metraninja]

For now, I will just move our settler in position to settle with stone in first ring. Once settled, we can have it in 2 turns.

 

[Bowsling]

That's actually a very disturbing chat - it seems as though he's intentionally stalling on us. I highly doubt that information availability in RB has gotten to the point where a senior diplomat is unable to check on when their new border city will have a border pop. The answer to your question should have been a "I'll check our MM threads and give you an answer in a minute", not "I'll ask my team". It sounds like he's asking his team something else, along the lines of how long they need us to not have stone or something like that.

 

[2metraninja]

On the whole stone issue, I start to believe they are aiming at HG and not at Pyramids or TGW. In this case, we will just need to know at what exact turn we will have the stone, so we are ready. HG requires Aqueduct and we dont see one built in their cities, right Yossa? Maybe some of those big counts hammers they had invested are for Aqueduct and they expect this Aqueduct to be finished soon in 1-2-3 turns and they dont want to give us the stone now because they will need it then?

 

[Sommerswerd]

The deadline for Stone at the earliest is the earliest time we would start building a stone Wonder, say Mids for example.

Now let's say that they are building Mids (or TGW) and they don't want to give us the stone because they don't want us to compete for it... Demanding stone now will not make them delay their Wonder and risk losing it to us. They will just stall until it is finished and then say "OK we are ready to sign the NAP now and give you the stone" Are we ready to refuse at that point? If not then there is NO risk to them in stalling to finish their Wonder.

2metra says that with stone we can finish TGW in 2 turns, Mids in 10. I don't think it's a coincidence that they want exactly a 10 turn delay. If we can finish it in 10 turns so can they.

So here is our play IMO. We can accept that they are going to get both Wonders and go ahead and accept our T175 NAP with free stone and spice, or say this:

Hi Scooter,

I checked with the team and getting Stone right away is a dealbreaker for us. Basically the conspiracy theorists have persuaded everyone that you guys are trying to rush all the stone Wonders before giving us the stone making it useless to us. The team position is that if you can't give us Stone this turn before the turn rolls, then future NAPs are permanently off the table.

Hope that's clear. Sorry but those are my orders.

Caledorn

 

[Bowsling]

That's... ambitious. But great at the same time!

 

[talonschild]

And, important or not, oh so satisfying to say.

 

[2metraninja]

It sounds good, but of course I will have to play the cautious one once again when around Captain Sommers temper. First, we cant risk our future politics, based on a single bluff. Also, we cant have The Stone earlier than turn 104 even if we settle B3 (now is t102 and there are 3 hours only to turn switch, so we cant get agreement before turn 103). And those 10 turns I count if we know 3-4 turns in advance that stone is coming, so we can get our workers ready. It can be even less than 10 turns. We can have Pyramids in like 6 turns once the workers are in position. So we need 3 turns to hook up stone after we settle B3. Then we need like 3 turns to move them and 3 turns to chop, so Pyramids are ready on the fourth. but That is not much slower than if we ask them to give us end date and this date is about 7 turns from now. I will check when A1 was settled.

 

[Sommerswerd]

For the record, I think our smartest play is to just take our free stone and spice and stand up from the table (gambling reference), but if we are going to press our luck, then the only way to go to me seems to be to all-in (No immediate stone, no NAP, ever).

It is the riskier choice, obviously... Greater risk = greater reward... or failure

 

[2metraninja]

I think our smartest play is to just take our free stone and spice and stand up from the table (gambling reference)

Was going to say that too. We wasted 2 turns and possibly 6 workerturns waiting for political solution. But we could not settle the isthmus city before finalizing the deal of course.

I just calculated and we have 6 turns from the time we get the stone to the Pyramids. If we decide to give them a shot, we can start it even earlier (2 turns without Stone equals 1 turn with stone for those 6 turns + we can chop in the last turn when we get the stone.

Lets wrap this baby asking RB to give us exact date of delivery of Stone and plan according to this. I think we will have another serious decisions to be made very soon.

 

[cav scout]

Lets go all in, they will fold because the NAP is what they care about. They would rather give up stone for 10 turns then have a wild card on their border.

I wouldn't even mention wonders in our reply. Just say that the stone and spice right now is a requirement for any extension of the NAP with us.

 

[YossarianLives]

Scooter needing to check with the team when borders will pop is bull$hit. Starfall was settled on T98 with a free Obelisk. Barring Anarchy, the borders will pop no later than T108, which is 5 turns from now (T103 just started an hour ago).

I just popped into the game to confirm, RB has no Aqueduct in any visible city. They do have some core cities in the fog, so they could be building it in one of these, but I doubt it. I also noticed a lighthouse in Horse Feathers that I had missed earlier.

That body of water to CP's southeast is a freshwater lake. Interesting, I wonder where their southern shore is...

Spaniards have sent a Worker outside of their borders towards us, presumably to help with the road network. We haven't started our end of it yet, but we have some workers in the area, so we should prioritize this. It'll give them trade routes to RB and the Germans, too. Lucky them.

Our axes are in position to take the Spaniards' barb city next turn. Are we doing this? Do you want me to say anything to them before we take it?

Edit: Sorry, that turned into a more general update, probably shouldn't have gone in here. The first part about RB is relevant, though.

 

[Caledorn]

I agree with the careful sentiment here and will prepare a draft accordingly soon as that seems to be the most prominent desire.

I will adapt Sommerswerd's alternative as well, and I will call a vote between the two (probably overstepping my bounds a little) if talonschild is not around to do it. We need a decision before tomorrow afternoon EU time.

 

[Bowsling]

I take it we haven't heard from scooter yet?

 

[Caledorn]

No - based on what he said in the conversation I expect he won't get back to us until tomorrow. This is so blatantly obvious stalling that it's almost painful...

 

[Bowsling]

That's why I'm in favor of Sommerswerd's "chainsaw Diplomacy" approach.

 

[Caledorn]

Draft A

Scooter/RB,

We are fine with your proposal of gifting us the stone as soon as you get it connected to your network, and we will help you connect it up with our workers immediately. As my team has told me, the cultural border pop of Starfall should happen in 5 turns (turn 108), so we will add the clause that we expect the stone from you turn 112 at the very latest - but if you can complete it before that we will consider that an act of goodwill on your part since you would need to divert more workers to the area to be able to do that.

If this is acceptable to you, then we consider our negotiations complete, and we have a long-term partnership agreement until turn 175, that should be renegotiated around turn 155-160.

Caledorn on behalf of Team CFC

Draft B

Scooter/RB,

My team has told me that the cultural border pop of Starfall should happen in 5 turns from now (turn 108). We will send workers to the area and build roads to the tile, so you can hook it up quickly. However, we would like you to gift us the stone the turn that the cultural border flips (turn 108), and we are offering you the loan of 2 of our workers so you can complete the quarry asap so you get a stone resource back into your trade network quickly after that.

If this is acceptable to you, then we consider our negotiations complete, and we have a long-term partnership agreement until turn 175, that should be renegotiated around turn 155-160.

Caledorn on behalf of Team CFC

Draft C

Scooter/RB,

I checked with the team and getting Stone right away is a dealbreaker for us. Basically, the conspiracy theorists of the team have persuaded everyone that you guys are trying to rush all the stone Wonders before gifting us the stone, thus making it useless to us. The official team position is thus that if you can't give us the Stone this turn before the turn rolls, we consider any agreements for future NAPs permanently off the table.

Hope that's clear. Sorry but those are my orders.

Caledorn on behalf of Team CFC

I wrote these rather quickly, so don't hold any bad wording against me please Suggestions for any of the drafts are welcome! We should have a vote up within the hour. If you prefer a suggestion but think there are something in the draft that you would like modified then vote for that suggestion, and I will adjust the draft as we agree to.

 

[talonschild]

Kinda would prefer that draft 3 read "for at least the next 100 turns" or something. Never say never, and all that. Vote (as requested) going up.

 

[Caledorn]

I think our drafts are meaningless at the moment, as the procative move of the settler seems to have solved the entire issue - well done on moving that settler, 2metra. I'm quite pleased with this, and I think we should just accept it outright.

realmsbeyondscooter: hey Caledorn
you around?

me: heya

realmsbeyondscooter: hey! ok, so one of our turn players just posted a screenshot of the stone area. it showed you guys have got a settler way out there 1W of the rice. are you guys really wanting to plant on that tile?

me: I cannot respond to that question I'm afraid
I'm sorry

realmsbeyondscooter: I'm not sure I follow..?

me: I can't respond to the teams settling plans without the approval of the team is what I mean

realmsbeyondscooter: well, surely we would find out this/next turn, so I guess I'm confused what the harm is
but that location is... not ideal

me: The discussions are pretty active at the moment (as I'm sure you have guessed), and my freedom to speak on certain things is limited by the team until we have come to an agreement

realmsbeyondscooter: yeah that makes sense. I guess it's a confusing move, as I thought we were close to a deal where we'd give you that stone anyways, and this seems geared towards forcing the issue and making our borders pretty tight

me: I am sure everything will resolve amicably if we (that is our teams) come to a solution we're both happy with
that much I can say

realmsbeyondscooter: for sure. yeah I don't want any damage to be done, which is why I thought i'd catch you on here immediately
i'm assuming this is because you need the stone sooner than you would've otherwise gotten it

me: I understand your concerns yes
The stone is an important part of this, yes - I won't pretend that it isn't, as it's pretty obvious

realmsbeyondscooter: understood. pyramids play?

me: now there's something I can't respond to again, and I'm sure you know that laughs

realmsbeyondscooter: worth a shot to ask!

me: of course I would have done the same!

realmsbeyondscooter: well, I do need to speak plainly and honestly - that spot is not a spot we would be happy with you guys settling. It's 3 tiles away from 2 cities of ours and heavily encroaches on both of them.
if there's anything we can do/say to dissuade you from settling on that spot, please let me know

me: I understand that sentiment
Considering the heavy discussion going on in the team right now, I feel obliged to let the team make a decision before I make a statement here that can commit us to one action or another.
You have the idea about what our concern is though, as that is pretty obvious
And I'm sure we can come to an agreement that makes both our teams happy.

realmsbeyondscooter: yeah I definitely understand being in a rush to get stone hooked.
well that's what I'm attempting here . ok, here's the best we can do:
Starfall's borders pop on t107
so that stone could be hooked on exactly t107. it will take a lot of work to manage that, but it's possible
to do you one better, we could gifft your our sole source on T106, MAYBE T105, but I really don't know if that's possible. T106 most likely
so... if your team can manage to wait a couple more turns for stone, we could take care of that much

me: my turn: pyramids play?

realmsbeyondscooter: as is I'm guessing you probably wouldn't be able to hook that stone much before then anyways unless you have a massive army of workers ready to rock
well you didn't tell, so I'm not sure I can either

me: smiles that is perfectly fair
your offer is a good one, so I will deliver it into the discussions that's going on, and I will get back to you on what the sentiment is for this

realmsbeyondscooter: ok great, thank you. sorry to be a little blunt on our opinion of the city placement, but given the time crunch I figured I'd just cut to the point. thanks for being understanding

me: oh no worries at all on that. I've had to be a bit blunt on some statements myself. But as we both know, this is nothing personal, and is only pure diplomacy work on behalf of our teams.

 

[Caledorn]

More goodies to be perused by everyone here:

realmsbeyondscooter: ok, so I just got some feedback from my teammates, and I got some permission to speak a little more freely about stone/wonders
the only thing I ask is that you are sworn to secrecy - this is shared with your team and our team only

me: that is perfectly acceptable. I can use my power as the foreign minister for CFC to bind my team to that promise.
and just to make sure that is clear, I do use that power, so I bind us to that

realmsbeyondscooter: ok great. you do not have to confirm/deny, but our best guess is you're aiming at the pyramids, which would make sense. We are hoping to complete Hanging Gardens in the next couple turns, which we are predicting is not the stone wonder you are pursuing
we have no intentions to steal pyramids from you, if that is indeed your target
we of course can't promise the same for every other team in the game
but if that eases any of your concerns about using the stone, I hope that helps

me: 2 seconds - I just have to look something up

realmsbeyondscooter: and this will all be quite amusing if we've totally guessed wrong

me: okay, based on that I feel comfortable with telling you that we are indeed not aiming for the HG. Of course, the HG is not a wonder we would deny having, as it's a very sweet wonder. But that is indeed not the one we are aiming for right now.
now, as I still cannot confirm/deny your team's theories, I can just say that it is obvious that if we are indeed aiming for the pyramids, we would need stone quickly as the pyramids are long overdue anyways.

realmsbeyondscooter: understood! I'm kind of surprised they have not yet fallen.

I deliberately chose not to confirm/deny the pyramids, and respond with the "it is obvious that if we are indeed aiming for..." statement to leave them to theorizing. They know we either want the 'mids or TGW - but let them think we want the 'mids (Alternatively they are afraid we want TGW, and scooter is trying to trick me into making a statement that gives it away - either way I did not want to confirm anything, as if we then built TGW first I could be accused of lying to them, even if we do want the 'mids too).