Expanded Great People Names (EGPNs)

Tomorrow's Dawn · Aug 20, 2013

iOnlySignIn said:
But France lacks post-Napoleonic Era Generals otherwise.

I don't think they necessarily need to have them though.

iOnlySignIn said:
No, his (Henry David Thoreau's) philosophy was not politically influential.

I've read him and I consider him complete garbage. I agree with most of his ideas actually - I just find his arguments for them the opposite of persuasive.

Civil Disobedience was a very influential book however, and it certainly influenced figures and people for generations that came after him, such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi.
Well, regardless, the Campbells (Thomas & Alexander; father & son, so unfortunately, Brothers does not work here)
were leading figures in the Second Great Awakening in America, and can be considered for Great Prophet status.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

I enjoy reading Thoreau and agree with most of his ideas. I just think his influence has been grossly overestimated.

Thomas Campbell is a good example. But I would need a new excuse to not include Joseph Smith then.

I think I'll add Thoreau to the Prophet list.

Tomorrow's Dawn · Aug 20, 2013

iOnlySignIn said:
I enjoy reading Thoreau and agree with most of his ideas. I just think his influence has been grossly overestimated.

Thomas Campbell is a good example. But I would need a new excuse to not include Joseph Smith then.

I think I'll add Thoreau to the Prophet list.

I don't know why, but this reminded me of possibly the quintessential candidate for American Great Prophet.

John Winthrop is probably the best and I can't believe I overlooked him.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

Tomorrow's Dawn said:
I don't know why, but this reminded me of possibly the quintessential candidate for American Great Prophet.

John Winthrop is probably the best and I can't believe I overlooked him.

He's English, not American.

I'll do England's lists tomorrow and see if I can work him in there. He faces steep competition here, of course.

Jusos2108 · Aug 20, 2013

Have you thought about making own lists for Great Spies? I could provide you Russian ones, as I am currently reading a book that's also about Russian Empire's espionage, or the start of it. I could also provide few Japanese names.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

Jusos2108 said:
Have you thought about making own lists for Great Spies? I could provide you Russian ones, as I am currently reading a book that's also about Russian Empire's espionage, or the start of it. I could also provide few Japanese names.

I think it must be too difficult to come up with unique Great Spy lists for the vast majority of civs. Babylonian Great Spies, anyone?

However, the current shared Great Spy list can certainly be improved.

Spoiler :

So yeah, if you can improve the above list please do so.

I think a good goal is actually to shorten this list to a list of ~16 greatest spies from around the world, removing inconsequential names such as Qin Wuyang. Would you like to do that?

Jusos2108 · Aug 20, 2013

Well diplomats can be considered Great Spies, so if you can come up with one Babylonian diplomat, it wouldn't be a problem. And I think that's perfectly feasible.

Alternatively, only modern civs could have their own list and others could use the common pool. That would need to coded though.

I'll give you some names later today.

Tomorrow's Dawn · Aug 20, 2013

iOnlySignIn said:
He's English, not American.

I'll do England's lists tomorrow and see if I can work him in there. He faces steep competition here, of course.

Gah, can't believe I forgot that too.
He's so synonymous with New England and Boston in general that it's hard for me to make the distinction that he isn't American.
It reminds me of this famous colonial Mexican figure (whose name currently escapes me) that is celebrated in Mexico when she was a Spanish citizen.

Great Spies are going to be hard, although if you include Diplomats, I suppose that works.
Without it, we'd have to do some Assassin's Creed-style reaching.

platyping · Aug 20, 2013

Out of boredom

Xiang Yu is one Chinese General that definitely should be in the list.

Cao Cao feels more like a Leader rather than just a General.
Guan Yu would fit better since he is so famous there are temples built after him.

Tomorrow's Dawn · Aug 20, 2013

platyping said:
Out of boredom

Xiang Yu is one Chinese General that definitely should be in the list.

I disagree. Xiang Yu was talented but undisciplined, overtly self-absorbed and had a number of other faults that in my opinion, disqualify him from the list.
And this isn't even in comparison to Liu Bang, who had a bevy of his own faults.

platyping said:
Cao Cao feels more like a Leader rather than just a General.
Guan Yu would fit better since he is so famous there are temples built after him.

With all due respect to Guan Yu, he is overrated in terms of his martial ability.
I honestly blame Romance of the Three Kingdoms for that.
Cao Cao's military record, barring Chibi, was very good and he helped contribute
greatly to the commentary on Chinese military treatises at the time.

platyping · Aug 20, 2013

No doubt Cao Cao is a great military leader.
But if he is considered just a "general" then so is Napolean or Alexander.
He is in fact, King of Wei, well, after his death.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

The only thing preventing Napoleon or Alexander from being on the GG lists of France and Greece is because they are already leaderheads. Since Cao Cao does not have a leaderhead he definitely deserves a place on the GG list.

Xiang Yu is decent but everyone else on the list is much better.

The Guan Yu that is worshiped in temples and that most people know and love is pure fiction, invented by authors like Luo Guanzhong. If he was actually a great general with divine prowess the Shu would never have been so weak. Same thing with Zhuge Liang.

Which reminds me. I'm going to remove Hector from the Greek GG list when I come to it. It's wrong in more ways than one.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

OK I updated the French General list based on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_military_leaders

<UniqueName>Charles Martel</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Philip II Augustus</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henry IV</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henri de Turenne</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Louis-Rene de Latouche Treville</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean Victor Marie Moreau</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Louis-Nicolas Davout</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Gilbert de Lafayette</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ferdinand Foch</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Joseph Joffre</UniqueName>

Updated American GG list, based on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Army_four-star_generals

<UniqueName>Andrew Jackson</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ulysses S. Grant</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>William Tecumseh Sherman</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John J. Pershing</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Douglas MacArthur</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>George C. Marshall</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Dwight D. Eisenhower</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>George Patton</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Chester W. Nimitz</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Omar Bradley</UniqueName>

I will post names of each civ into separate posts since the OP is becoming too wieldy.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

== China ==

Prophets:
<UniqueName>Laozi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Kong Fuzi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Mengzi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zhuangzi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Mozi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Han Fei</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Yang Xiong</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zhu Xi</UniqueName>

Artists:
<UniqueName>Yu Boya</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Cai Wenji</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ji Kang</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Li Bai</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Du Fu</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Su Shi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Wang Xizhi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zheng Banqiao</UniqueName>

Scientists:
<UniqueName>Liu Hui</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zu Chongzhi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Shen Kuo</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zhu Shijie</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Li Shizhen</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Chen Xingshen</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Hua Luogeng</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Yang Zhenning</UniqueName>

Merchants:
<UniqueName>Shang Yang</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Li Si</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zhang Qian</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ban Chao</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Xuanzang</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Wang Anshi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zheng He</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Deng Xiaoping</UniqueName>

Engineers:
<UniqueName>Zheng Guo</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Li Bing</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Cai Lun</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zhang Heng</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Bi Sheng</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zhan Tianyou</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Li Siguang</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Tian Changlin</UniqueName>

Generals:
<UniqueName>Sunzi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Bai Qi</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Han Xin</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Wei Qing</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Cao Cao</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Li Jing</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Yue Fei</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Yuan Chonghuan</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Zuo Zongtang</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Lin Biao</UniqueName>

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

== France ==

Prophets

<UniqueName>Pierre Abelard</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Louis IX</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jeanne d'Arc</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean Calvin</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Voltaire</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Denis Diderot</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Albert Schweitzer</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Marcel Legaut</UniqueName>

Artists

<UniqueName>Charles Le Brun</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean-Baptiste Lully</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Charles Perrault</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Victor Hugo</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jules Verne</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Claude Monet</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henri Matisse</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Claude Debussy</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Alexandre Dumas</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean Luc Godard</UniqueName>

Scientists

<UniqueName>Nicole Oresme</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Rene Descartes</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Pierre de Fermat</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Antoine Lavoisier</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Pierre-Simon Laplace</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Evariste Galois</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Louis Pasteur</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Marie Curie</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Antoine Henri Becquerel</UniqueName>

Merchants

<UniqueName>Guillaume Tirel</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jacques Cartier</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Samuel de Champlain</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean-Baptiste Colbert</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>François Caron</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Joseph François Dupleix</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Coco Chanel</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Christian Dior</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Marcel Dessault</UniqueName>

Engineers

<UniqueName>Jules Hardouin Mansart</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Blaise Pascal</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Claude Perrault</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Charles Augustin de Coulomb</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Montgolfier Brothers</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean-Baptiste Vaquette de Gribeauval</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Nicolas Carnot</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Alexandre Gustave Eiffel</UniqueName>

Generals

<UniqueName>Charles Martel</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Philip II Augustus</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henry IV</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henri de Turenne</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Louis-Rene de Latouche Treville</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean Victor Marie Moreau</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Louis-Nicolas Davout</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Gilbert de Lafayette</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ferdinand Foch</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Joseph Joffre</UniqueName>

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

== America ==

Prophet

<UniqueName>Patrick Henry</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Thomas Paine</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jonathan Edwards</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John Dewey</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Sojourner Truth</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henry David Thoreau</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Elizabeth Cady Stanton</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Martin Luther King, Jr.</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Malcolm X</UniqueName>

Artist

<UniqueName>Edgar Allan Poe</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Mark Twain</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Howard Pyle</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ernest Hemingway</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Frank Lloyd Wright</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Elvis Presley</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Miles Davis</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Andy Warhol</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Steven Spielberg</UniqueName>

Scientist

<UniqueName>George Washington Carver</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Edwin Hubble</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Arthur Compton</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John von Neumann</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Glenn Seaborg</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Robert Oppenheimer</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Richard Feynman</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Linus Pauling</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>James D. Watson</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Barbara McClintock</UniqueName>

Merchant

<UniqueName>Alexander Hamilton</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Cornelius Vanderbilt</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John D. Rockefeller</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Andrew Carnegie</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Jean Paul Getty</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Howard Hughes</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>William Edward Boeing</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Bill Gates</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Warren Buffett</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Steve Jobs</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Larry Page</UniqueName>

Engineer

<UniqueName>Benjamin Franklin</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Thomas Edison</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Nichola Tesla</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Henry Ford</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Charles Goodyear</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Wright Brothers</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John Browning</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Claude Shannon</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Dennis Ritchie</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Steve Wozniak</UniqueName>

General

<UniqueName>Andrew Jackson</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Ulysses S. Grant</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>William Tecumseh Sherman</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John J. Pershing</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Douglas MacArthur</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>George C. Marshall</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Dwight D. Eisenhower</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>George Patton</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Chester W. Nimitz</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Omar Bradley</UniqueName>

platyping · Aug 20, 2013

iOnlySignIn said:
The only thing preventing Napoleon or Alexander from being on the GG lists of France and Greece is because they are already leaderheads. Since Cao Cao does not have a leaderhead he definitely deserves a place on the GG list.

Xiang Yu is decent but everyone else on the list is much better.

The Guan Yu that is worshiped in temples and that most people know and love is pure fiction, invented by authors like Luo Guanzhong. If he was actually a great general with divine prowess the Shu would never have been so weak. Same thing with Zhuge Liang.

Which reminds me. I'm going to remove Hector from the Greek GG list when I come to it. It's wrong in more ways than one.

Just because Cao Cao does not have a leaderhead does not mean he should be downgraded from being a leader to a mere general.
It is simply because, there are too many kings and emperors in history of China.
Nobody will classify Tang Taizong as a Great Artist for instance, so why should the King of Wei be just a mere Great General.

Xiang Yu overthrew the whole Qin Dynasty, yet everyone else on the list is better?
Who on the list did a bigger feat than that?

Guan Yu is worshipped for his loyalty, nothing to do with divinity.
In fact, he still died in the ROTK novel after being captured.
Just because Shu is weak does not mean all Shu Generals are weak.
Sun Tzu on the list is well known for being a Great General for his famous Art of War.
But who won in the end? Qin.
Does that make Sun Tzu a bad general then, if not why does Qin win instead?

Tomorrow's Dawn · Aug 20, 2013

iOnlySignIn said:
== America ==

Scientist

<UniqueName>Arthur Compton</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Edwin Hubble</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>John von Neumann</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Glenn Seaborg</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Robert Oppenheimer</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Richard Feynman</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Linus Pauling</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>James D. Watson</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Arthur Kornberg</UniqueName>
<UniqueName>Barbara McClintock</UniqueName>

I would suggest replacing one of these with George Washington Carver.
Actually, there's a lot to choose from and it's kind of difficult to justify kicking some of these out for equally important contributors in the sciences.
Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan & Neil deGrasse Tyson come to mind.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

Tomorrow's Dawn said:
I would suggest replacing one of these with George Washington Carver.

I will.

Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan & Neil deGrasse Tyson come to mind.

These are more educators than scientists compared to those already on the list.

iOnlySignIn · Aug 20, 2013

platyping said:
Just because Cao Cao does not have a leaderhead does not mean he should be downgraded from being a leader to a mere general.

So your suggestion is that instead of a mere general he should be downgraded to nothing?

Xiang Yu overthrew the whole Qin Dynasty, yet everyone else on the list is better?
Who on the list did a bigger feat than that?

The Qin collapsed on itself. Xiang Yu just happened to be born around that time period.

If you wish to know the people most directly responsible for Qin's collapse, read 史記·陳涉世家

Guan Yu is worshipped for his loyalty, nothing to do with divinity.
In fact, he still died in the ROTK novel after being captured.
Just because Shu is weak does not mean all Shu Generals are weak.
Sun Tzu on the list is well known for being a Great General for his famous Art of War.
But who won in the end? Qin.
Does that make Sun Tzu a bad general then, if not why does Qin win instead?

Are you really from Singapore? Is Chinese history, or any history, taught this poorly there? Or is it just you?

I mean seriously. Do you really believe Guan Yu is a 2.16 meters tall red skinned giant from 3rd century CE? Or anything else you read about in fiction?

Expanded Great People Names (EGPNs)

Heroes Never Die

Prince$s

Heroes Never Die

Prince$s

Deity

Prince$s

Deity

Heroes Never Die

Sleeping Dragon

Heroes Never Die

Sleeping Dragon

Prince$s

Prince$s

Prince$s

Prince$s

Prince$s

Sleeping Dragon

Heroes Never Die

Prince$s

Prince$s

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