CIV 5 Ottoman Empire Jannisaris and Sepahi too strong ?
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GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
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Barbary Corsairs looks so weak and situational, they Ottomans might as well have no special abilty. They need extremely strong unique units and first they'll have to survive until gunpowder.
JoeBlabbah
Chieftain
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Barbary Corsairs is a very weak UA. As opposed to Teutonic Furor which is easier to get (due to the fact coming across Barbarian camps is more common), the Ottomans would get flayed in every battle if they didn't have the Sipahi and Janissary. Plus, you have to wait to get Metallurgy and Gunpowder before you could use them, so you have another obstacle...Waiting to get them.
A big problem with Ottomans is the timing.
Gunpowder, Engineering, Steel are late medieval/early renaissance techs, but there's three of them, so Gunpowder is difficult to get with great scientist to create a tech advantage. Bulbing gunpowder alone is not so significant, because of the vast amount of medieval pre-reqs, you could just go ahead and research it by the time you have the pre-reqs.
Meanwhile, Metallurgy/Rifling is mid/late Renaissance, and both high cost, and you can get a great scientist or two by this time, to create a substantial tech gap.
When I am rushing, I generally get Rifling 0-7 turns (quick) after gunpowder. This is not enough time to build Janissaries.
Therefore, Ottomans must have a slow/large rifle rush, with delayed rifling, in order to properly use their unique unit. They must also have a substantial amount of gold for upgrades.
Personally, I prefer a quick/small rifle rush, because they take less turns of preparation, and allow for more strategy flexibility.
Janissary rush alone without upgrading the Janissaries to riflemen is ill-advised, because 25 is more than 50% stronger than 16, and is only 2 techs away.
Gunpowder, Engineering, Steel are late medieval/early renaissance techs, but there's three of them, so Gunpowder is difficult to get with great scientist to create a tech advantage. Bulbing gunpowder alone is not so significant, because of the vast amount of medieval pre-reqs, you could just go ahead and research it by the time you have the pre-reqs.
Meanwhile, Metallurgy/Rifling is mid/late Renaissance, and both high cost, and you can get a great scientist or two by this time, to create a substantial tech gap.
When I am rushing, I generally get Rifling 0-7 turns (quick) after gunpowder. This is not enough time to build Janissaries.
Therefore, Ottomans must have a slow/large rifle rush, with delayed rifling, in order to properly use their unique unit. They must also have a substantial amount of gold for upgrades.
Personally, I prefer a quick/small rifle rush, because they take less turns of preparation, and allow for more strategy flexibility.
Janissary rush alone without upgrading the Janissaries to riflemen is ill-advised, because 25 is more than 50% stronger than 16, and is only 2 techs away.
They are strong but they are stuck at a horrible spot in the tech tree. Nothing upgrades to them and once you get rifles you can't build anymore.
They are weaker strength wise than longswords and come out way later. So you really have to make a bunch of them and then upgrade to rifles and attack.
They are weaker strength wise than longswords and come out way later. So you really have to make a bunch of them and then upgrade to rifles and attack.
Ottoman UA is perhaps the weakest in the game. I would prefer that all civ's UA should not have very limited use. Instead they must give a pure military or economical advantage. For example Ottomans can get a UA which helps them in conquering lands (something like siege or assimilation bonus etc). Similarly other civs like English should get UA which directly boosts their economic & colonization power. Germans can get production bonuses which can be useful throughout the game.
joyous_gard
Prince
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- Oct 10, 2010
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- 476
The janissary is awesome on prince. I have played a couple games... teching to musket after getting the basic techs.... 1 or 2 cities, heroic epic, national college, money college... use converted ships to have some military.
This most recent game there was no iron to be found for me, so I just stalled with my starting axe and a scout that turned into an archer. When muskets hit, I pumped out janissaries and I was somehow ahead in tech, I just romped my continent with janissaries. On another continent, FOY was not claimed, so I claimed and before I knew it I had insane units. 15% morale, heal when kill, double heal rate for bombarded units or city capture units. It was a smooth game.
I had a lot of things go right though, good start, no lack of money, smiles, or aggro from AI.
My first game with ottoman didn't go so well. I teched to musket, but I was way far behind in tech and nothing really went great and so it was a slog.
After getting musket, I backfill in the rest of the techs and keep pumping out janissaries. It's not bad.
This most recent game there was no iron to be found for me, so I just stalled with my starting axe and a scout that turned into an archer. When muskets hit, I pumped out janissaries and I was somehow ahead in tech, I just romped my continent with janissaries. On another continent, FOY was not claimed, so I claimed and before I knew it I had insane units. 15% morale, heal when kill, double heal rate for bombarded units or city capture units. It was a smooth game.
I had a lot of things go right though, good start, no lack of money, smiles, or aggro from AI.
My first game with ottoman didn't go so well. I teched to musket, but I was way far behind in tech and nothing really went great and so it was a slog.
After getting musket, I backfill in the rest of the techs and keep pumping out janissaries. It's not bad.
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
This is a very interesting thread where which again proves again that gaps in knowledge lead to sometimes disastrous misinterpretations.
Janissary has 20
when attacking, 16 when defending. You all probably missed the 25% attack bonus that also transfers to upgrades. The mere 5 difference to rifleman is negligible considering the higher 
costs. One might argue that Musketeers are better because of the higher base strength, but I'd take instant healing over defensive 4 any day.
There are no units at this era that can outrun the Sipahi, making them a perfect flanker to otherwise "vunerable to counterattack" Janissaries.
Supplement the attack force with Cannons to help out Janissaries or Sipahi capture cities.
An Ottoman UUs+Cannons invasion force can beat up anything you throw at it up to Infantry and Artillery.
As for strategy, you might want to delay Rifling until you build a sizeable force of Janissaries. The real Unique ability of Ottomans is having gunpowder-class units upgradeable so that they can match technologically superior units when on offensive. Musketman with 20 attack, Rifleman with 31 attack, Infantry with 45 attack, Mech. Inf. with 62 attack.
Janissary has 20
when attacking, 16 when defending. You all probably missed the 25% attack bonus that also transfers to upgrades. The mere 5 difference to rifleman is negligible considering the higher costs. One might argue that Musketeers are better because of the higher base strength, but I'd take instant healing over defensive 4 any day.There are no units at this era that can outrun the Sipahi, making them a perfect flanker to otherwise "vunerable to counterattack" Janissaries.
Supplement the attack force with Cannons to help out Janissaries or Sipahi capture cities.
An Ottoman UUs+Cannons invasion force can beat up anything you throw at it up to Infantry and Artillery.
As for strategy, you might want to delay Rifling until you build a sizeable force of Janissaries. The real Unique ability of Ottomans is having gunpowder-class units upgradeable so that they can match technologically superior units when on offensive. Musketman with 20
attack, Rifleman with 31 attack, Infantry with 45 attack, Mech. Inf. with 62 attack.
Martin Alvito
Real men play SMAC
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- Sep 23, 2010
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I'd take instant healing over defensive 4
Instant healing also carries over to promotions where the Musketeer's
bonus does not.The problem with the Ottomans is that you have to hard-build all of those Janissaries before they obsolete. On higher difficulty levels, your attack windows where you have a technological advantage tend to be brief. Designing your strategy around hitting opponents early with Swords and Longswords upgraded from Warriors ends up being a lot more effective than a delayed Rifle rush with super-buffed units. Highly advanced units don't take a lot of damage from lesser units, and early on you don't have to wade through a carpet of doom to capture territory.
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Or you can modify your usual strategy to rush-buy janissaries in the (otherwise) financially strongest era (late medieval-renaissance).
Immortal/deity? Yes! Rush-buy and hard build a dozen Janissaries to use this window to maximum.
We both know this strategy is not always applicable. Going for early Gunpowder units means you can spend your iron on catapults and have them up and running when you reach gunpowder, providing a more balanced army to grab more land. Followed by upgrades to trebuchets and grabbing a dozen janissaries gives you enough power to crush the enemy before it even reaches rifling (or if it has it, at least your units can kill them with some support).
Best use of janissaries i do is : hit a big golden age (14+ turns on quick speed, combo this with help of reformation, happy bucket, GG, GP) and hard build them while you tech metallurgy. Take 5-7 turns to throw 5-6 of them and make enough cash meanwhile. Use a gs to bulb rifles. Upgrade.
Not easy tho.
Not easy tho.
TM Moot
King
Haven't tried the Ottomans yet (partly becasue of the poor UA), but one problem i find when playing Romans or Greeks is that, whilst in theory it is good to have to UU;s in the same era, it is hard to produce enough of either type to use to maximum effect. Especially with the Roman UU's both requiring Iron!
I guess this is less of a problem with the Ottomans, as you should have a greater number of cities and a larger stock-pile of dirty cash to rush buy.
But give me one UU and a decent UB any day...
I guess this is less of a problem with the Ottomans, as you should have a greater number of cities and a larger stock-pile of dirty cash to rush buy.
But give me one UU and a decent UB any day...
Schalke 04
Knappe
First of all: no insult vs the OP intended!
However it is quite funny, as I remember, that I've read a thread some days ago were the OP asked why the Ottomans are so underwhelming.
I guess this is one of the things I like so much at Civilization!
However it is quite funny, as I remember, that I've read a thread some days ago were the OP asked why the Ottomans are so underwhelming.
I guess this is one of the things I like so much at Civilization!
globalicecream
Chieftain
When i play Civ the Ottomans are in every game. I just teamed with mongolia and rushed them out. (I was play Iroquois/Hiawatha)
Agree.
you can protect your sea trade routs easily. just recruit one trireme and build a huge navy. also, -66% naval unit maintenance makes them perfect.
