G-Major LVIII

Same do you - your tips are always great and they are not lying on the surface, but require some deep divings into the game.

But let's not forget the other players here - their contribution is much bigger at the moment than mine. Anyway we are here to exchange our experience and fun from the game - this is main purpose of these forums!

And thanks for revealing of the "Urban Dictionary" - i have put it to my browser's favourites for future use ;)

Let's get back to the game ;)



I calculated the amount of culture needed to complete liberty, it's 1305 culture points.

If we simply devide that by 105 turns we get 12,42 culture per turn. But if we take into consideration that during first 50 turns we generated 200 culture it gives us 1105 culture still nedeed to complete the liberty tree. Then we can calculate that: 1105 / 55 = approx 20,1 culture per turn what looks like really doable = 2 culture allies plus 1 culture friend and plus cap output (2 for monum, 1 for liberty opener, 1 from palace, 1 for God-King).

That's now my benchmark for this - collect 200 culture during first 50 turns and then get enough culture from CS (to have a rate of 21 culture per turn) to finish liberty in 105 turns.

I'm off for playing!

If the objective is 105, then add another 7 turns or so to walk the GM, we need to close Liberty by 98 to be safe(ish). Problem is the war of course. Money spend on CS is money not spent on units.

EDIT: sorry I did not read the post well, you mean to beat Vadalaz. Yep, 2 culture ruins, 2 allies and one friend after t55 should be safe enough, you have some margin due to the 20 turns golden age, about 40 culture. The tough bit is the war. I am still playing this, loads of fun, should be playing the diplo game but I find it difficult to tear myself from this and went back when Vadalaz posted. Not gonna beat him unless I get really lucky though.
 
Not gonna beat him unless I get really lucky though.

I think the best thing to do is concentrate on warmongering,...And hope to get lucky on the culture.

I have had some insane culture games,....Unfortunately I didn't anticipate it, and warmongering lagged delaying a Victory.

-Had 2 mercantile CS early, and was able to get a natural golden age before the free one with "Mercantilism".

-I bought 2 Cultural CS Allies to enhance the Golden Ages,...Then easy quests (Natural Wonder & Barb Camp) gave me 2 more Cultural Allies.

SO, 4 Cultural Allies on a double Golden Age!

There is that whole "Butterfly Effect" thing, but if I would have just committed exclusively to warmongering early...???

Could have been REALLY good!!



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My plan is to start building/buying military as early as possible - this will make it possible to concentrate on multiple quests/barb camps what, in turn, leads to more money plus some random benefits like from Mercantile CS or Military CS (what is always nice).

This way it should be possible to have enough money/units to be able to bribe cultural CS or fulfill their barb camp quests by turns 50-55.
 
My plan is to start building/buying military as early as possible - this will make it possible to concentrate on multiple quests/barb camps what, in turn, leads to more money plus some random benefits like from Mercantile CS or Military CS (what is always nice).

This way it should be possible to have enough money/units to be able to bribe cultural CS or fulfill their barb camp quests by turns 50-55.

I myself am going to target sub 130 and be happy if I can make it. My warring skills are not up to the sub 120 task I think. So far, I have had to spend 1500 gold on cult 2 allies to be able to hit t55 with the alliances in place, and that kills the war, I am finishing 125 or so. If I get a map where I get 2 doable CS barb quests for cultural and I can reduce my spend to 750, then I will try for better.

I am only gonna try 3-4 more times and then force myself out of this and into the diplo, as that is a longer game and I will not have much time.
 
I calculated the amount of culture needed to complete liberty, it's 1305 culture points.

If we simply devide that by 105 turns we get 12,42 culture per turn. But if we take into consideration that during first 50 turns we generated 200 culture it gives us 1105 culture still nedeed to complete the liberty tree. Then we can calculate that: 1105 / 55 = approx 20,1 culture per turn what looks like really doable = 2 culture allies plus 1 culture friend and plus cap output (2 for monum, 1 for liberty opener, 1 from palace, 1 for God-King).

That's now my benchmark for this - collect 200 culture during first 50 turns and then get enough culture from CS (to have a rate of 21 culture per turn) to finish liberty in 105 turns.

I'm off for playing!
Have you considered building the Oracle for the final push? This could shave some time off as well, although I'm not sure how feasible it is to get the Oracle before turn 105 on Marathon.
 
Have you considered building the Oracle for the final push? This could shave some time off as well, although I'm not sure how feasible it is to get the Oracle before turn 105 on Marathon.

No, because that will take forever. First you should be lucky enough to pop up 3 techs (pottery, writing, calendar) from the ruins and then you should complete GL (it takes like 70 turns, without building any military) to take Philosophy.

So, it's obviously not the way to go (at least with the current OCC setup).
 
Have you considered building the Oracle for the final push? This could shave some time off as well, although I'm not sure how feasible it is to get the Oracle before turn 105 on Marathon.


If your get assistance, Yes....Otherwise in my experience....NO.

The problem is that everyone is putting up incredible times, and main focus NOW seem to be on warmongering and playing the bottom of the Tech. Board.

Most people are settling on a mine, and want that resource available to trade for early gold, and Archery is required for starting your Warmongering early...
So, right there your talking about 2 Techs. that are prioritized over Pottery and Writing.

By the time you would work your way back up to top of the Tech. board to get those Techs, and THEN build GL and Oracle (Or Tech. Philosophy, and build Oracle)...It is too late!

The only exception IMHO is if you settle on a Masonry hill, or if you get Pottery and Writing as free Ruin Techs, OR BOTH....In that situation I usually choose "Monument of the Gods" to speed GL and Oracle.

Another problem, when you play the top of the Tech board many of the AI Civs prioritize Technology, and go/or switch to Tradition. (The 3 culture with kill your GMs chances at a Concert Tour).

I try it when the situation gives me the opportunity, but I have not put a game together that can match the original strategy.


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If your get assistance, Yes....Otherwise in my experience....NO.

The problem is that everyone is putting up incredible times, and main focus NOW seem to be on warmongering and playing the bottom of the Tech. Board.

Most people are settling on a mine, and want that resource available to trade for early gold, and Archery is required for starting your Warmongering early...
So, right there your talking about 2 Techs. that are prioritized over Pottery and Writing.

By the time you would work your way back up to top of the Tech. board to get those Techs, and THEN build GL and Oracle (Or Tech. Philosophy, and build Oracle)...It is too late!

The only exception IMHO is if you settle on a Masonry hill, or if you get Pottery and Writing as free Ruin Techs, OR BOTH....In that situation I usually choose "Monument of the Gods" to speed GL and Oracle.

Another problem, when you play the top of the Tech board many of the AI Civs prioritize Technology, and go/or swith to Tradition. (The 3 culture with kill your Gms chances at a Concert Tour).

I try it when the situation gives me the opportunity, but I have put a game together that can match the original strategy.

Good point. You almost certainly have to have a well-forested start and open with a GL push to get Oracle fast enough for it to come before t100. And that makes finishing the warmongering by t100 tricky. It's not out of the question, but it's tricky to do both.

I think probably that the optimal time is achieved by getting lucky enough to have 3 cultural CS allies early on and an immediate neighbor as the cultural laggard. However, this isn't *entirely* about luck, since your neighbor is the easiest one to harass, making it less likely they'll build a monument.
 
A late monument isn't as important as them not hitting culture ruins or going Tradition/Liberty. T30 monument = you have until t120 to win if they go Piety and probably around t115-117ish if Honor. There should be at least one AI within reach that fits this description, but yeah it has to be the neighbour for record times.

Unfortunately the key to success here is just getting lucky with cultural CS quests. The gold from conquest, barb camps, ruins, peace deals etc is good but not enough by itself to sustain 2-3 CS allies, since you also have to get 2 armies quickly. I think all you need is two well-timed quests, but even that seems rare, judging by my most recent attempts.
 
Well this will be my submission for this gauntlet, it is a truly great result for me, and I cannot see how I could have done it faster, thinking back about every move, I can see maybe 1 turn possibly 2 if I had accelerated the war in a couple of occasions where I just waited for an unit to heal and not run risks, but nothing else, the rest I played optimally. The only true mistake, which would have saved me a 2-3 turns, is when I settled in t1 (moved my settler), I should have settled on top of one of the salts instead of settling in the plains. Misclicked.

Culture:
1 culture ruin. I had 5 cultural CSs, and I was influential to varying degrees with 4 of them, throughout the game I spent I think 1500 gold, but could do some barb quests, mostly camps, so that saved me some money. I was unlucky that 1 barb camp for one of them was unreachable (completely surrounded by mountains, unbelievable). Attila was the laggard, not sure when he built the monument, but he would have reached 300 by t125, so I guess t38-39, normal time. There were a few other later monuments but they all popped ruins or were too far away. I closed Liberty t113, but could have closed it earlier, but preferred to save the money just in case, as I saw that the war was going to be the limiting factor. I bombed Attila on t118 or 119, don't remember exactly.

The war:
I built a scout and then rush bought another. After monument, I built a first army of archers and paired them with 1 scout and the promoted warrior to spearman (ruin). Those guys went directly north to kill Morocco (t78), and then went into the woods in the west to kill 2 AIs there, Venice (t92) and Ethiopia (t112). They finished their job 8 turns before the win.

The second army (CAs) went north and west to kill first Arabia (t102), then Delhi (t112), and finally Carthage (t120 win). Would have been faster to go directly west, then north and come back, but I had the feeling that Harun was building a settler, and did not have any units to spare to leave there and grab it, so I went and killed him first. I think 1 turn difference anyway so no big deal.

The luck:
I had the minimum luck necessary for the 115-125 range. 1 culture ruin, 1 tech ruin (Minery, unfortunately I was only 5 turns away from finishing researching it, but it was key anyway), 1 pop ruin, 1 promo ruin, ideally the warrior to spearman, and the laggards being within 10 turns. The rest of the maps were gold or maps. You usually have 3-4 out of the 7 within the 10 turn tange, and being a laggard depends on them not hitting culture ruin, more than the monument timing, so it helps that you are of course aggressively scouting around them to steal those ruins and just messing with their little mechanical minds.

If I had a second culture ruin take 3 turns off, or an earlier useful tech (archery or mining is ideal, the wheel or AH is also cool, but prefer one of the other 2), that is another 2-3 turns. I don't count the start here as for record time, it is clear that you have to roll a 2 mining luxury start that has at least another 3-4 2-1 tiles (2-3 if the lux is salt). These starts are not difficult to get, and remember in Great Plains it is very likely horses will appear if you are on the plains.

Tips:
I cannot stress enough how important are the first 35 turns. I mean you have to micro manage every single turn/every single unit move, but those first 30 are essential. The best advice so far is Vadalaz's, rush buy that second scout asap. The initial exploration scouting towards your neighbors, first trades timing are absolutely essential (99+whatever you can get by offering 1gpt), the careful timing to get the maximum return, the calculations for the DoW/Peace deal timing. Calculate everything in those 35 turns, they will dictate the rest of your game.

On to the diplo.

EDIT: with screenshots now

Spoiler :
Screen Shot 2015-03-20 at 12.24.57 PM.jpg


Spoiler :
Screen Shot 2015-03-20 at 12.25.07 PM.jpg
 
Well played, Bleidraner! I agree about the first 30-35 turns, it's very important to explore well and carefully manage the peace deals.

I just got a t108 CV which proves my theory that all you need for a good result is 3 cultural CS on the map and 2 decent quests (I got a Great General one and finding the lands of someone). The rest of the influence was from gold gifts, which was over 2k gold in the end I think... T101 killed everyone, t103 finished liberty, t107 bombed Askia.

And yeah, definitely moving on to the G-Minor now. :)
 
Well played, Bleidraner! I agree about the first 30-35 turns, it's very important to explore well and carefully manage the peace deals.

I just got a t108 CV which proves my theory that all you need for a good result is 3 cultural CS on the map and 2 decent quests (I got a Great General one and finding the lands of someone). The rest of the influence was from gold gifts, which was over 2k gold in the end I think... T101 killed everyone, t103 finished liberty, t107 bombed Askia.

And yeah, definitely moving on to the G-Minor now. :)

Yes, it turns out that this gauntlet is not as random as it first appeared. To quote Zenmaster, that first quantum level is relatively easy to get once you know how, and with optimal play (sub 120) you don't really depend on those late monuments. The ruins are also not that random, in this map you know where they will be, so you will pop 8-10 throughout the game, one of them will be culture and one of them will be pop almost certainly.

The main luck is with the quests, and that is why it matters so much to meet the CSs as early as possible. Also having 4-5 cultural CSs will improve your chances of doable quests. But even with 2 CSs 125 is doable. Again, you know where the CSs will be, so less randomness.

In short, once you roll a decent start, and barring really bad luck, it is possible to win more than 50 percent of the maps sub 150. To get the sub 110 vadalaz got, that's a whole different story:)
 
Yes, it turns out that this gauntlet is not as random as it first appeared. To quote Zenmaster, that first quantum level is relatively easy to get once you know how, and with optimal play (sub 120) you don't really depend on those late monuments. The ruins are also not that random, in this map you know where they will be, so you will pop 8-10 throughout the game, one of them will be culture and one of them will be pop almost certainly.

The main luck is with the quests, and that is why it matters so much to meet the CSs as early as possible. Also having 4-5 cultural CSs will improve your chances of doable quests. But even with 2 CSs 125 is doable. Again, you know where the CSs will be, so less randomness.

In short, once you roll a decent start, and barring really bad luck, it is possible to win more than 50 percent of the maps sub 150. To get the sub 110 vadalaz got, that's a whole different story:)
Yeah, this has been really interesting. At first I thought a straightforward GM bomb was close to impossible, but it turns out it's quite reliable actually as long as there are 3 cultural CSs... Very cool gauntlet.

You do get a lot of ruins but you don't always get culture and faith so that can be a bit annoying. For a sub-110 you really need those. I actually messed up and picked God-King on autopilot though I could get culture from gold and silver instead, as I settled on Gold and had another workable one. Would've given me an extra 40ish culture I think, so that's like 1 and a half turns faster Liberty. I would've lost about 75 beakers, gold and production though. Hmmm. I guess with 4 cultural CSs God-King would've been the better choice, but with the 3 that I had I should've gone with gold&silver. Maybe.
 
@Vadalaz,

What an incredible result! In my opinion that's pretty close to ubeatable within the remaining time frame for this G-Major! Congratulations!

@Bleidraner,

Very well done as well! Your result is my current "time to beat" aim. Congratulations!


I personally had 1,5 days break, but before i was having troubles to balance my culture and war efforts.

So, i'm back to "work" and will continue with this Major, best of luck to you, guys, in Minor!!!
 
OK, luck touched me again!

Settled cap on gems at turn number 1. Start was pretty promising - discovered Shaka in 10 tiles distance and decided that he should be culture victim. Then i start exploring futher and also found Harald in 10 tiles distance as well and also cultural CS in the North with the barb camp already spawned. Meanwhile built 2 scouts and rush buyed 1 scout as well - so decided to explore as much as possible. So my starting position was pretty close to forest area and in the forests themselves i found Dido and decided to kill her first. At the same time i DoWed everyone i met and for some reason (cap on gems?) they were ready to give me 2 bpt instead of just 1 - that led to huge ammount of money for me early on and i spent them mostly on archers for the early attacks. I also popped 3 culture ruins and one tech (mining), but unfotunatelly no faith - but got that later after got friendly with the one of religios CS. By the turn 50 i was able to get friendly only with one cultural CS (camp +nat wonder), but 5 turns later i had more than 1000 gold in my treasary what i immediately spent on second cultural CS (also found 3rd cultural CS on turn 65 or so). Conquest part was pretty easy - i didn't have any AIs caps founded on the hills - so i sent 2 archer + scout/warrior per cap. One surpsise in this part was that Shaka was able to get an expo, but that didn't help him of course. I conquered 6 civs in 93 turns, but limiting factor was culture. I closed liberty only at turn 100 and then i used a road to speed up my GM movement.
A played safe again and was able to ger my whole army to the Harald borders - just in case, but he had only archer :)

And it was turn 103 whem i used my GM within Harald's border, but after GM dissappered i message showed that i became dominant over Denmark... - i was really shocked and seating still for 5-10 sec... I was thinking: what the hell heck, how Harald was able to get more than 300 culture by turn 103, having built monument in 70ish - game lost... Then i remembered that there is one more level over influential... and yes - it was dominant - what a relief! I got tourism double of his culture amount. I was really not ready to see dominant instead of influential :)

So that was pretty funny, i don't know if Vadalaz will try to counter my result, but anyway sub 100 is possible (if i had had more luck with the cultural CS quests i would have probably won earlier - but again i got more than enough luck in my game.)

EDIT: screens added.
 

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OK, luck touched me again!

Settled cap on gems at turn number 1. Start was pretty promising - discovered Shaka in 10 tiles distance and decided that he should be culture victim. Then i start exploring futher and also found Harald in 10 tiles distance as well and also cultural CS in the North with the barb camp already spawned. Meanwhile built 2 scouts and rush buyed 1 scout as well - so decided to explore as much as possible. So my starting position was pretty close to forest area and in the forests themselves i found Dido and decided to kill her first. At the same time i DoWed everyone i met and for some reason (cap on gems?) they were ready to give me 2 bpt instead of just 1 - that led to huge ammount of money for me early on and i spent them mostly on archers for the early attacks. I also popped 3 culture ruins and one tech (mining), but unfotunatelly no faith - but got that later after got friendly with the one of religios CS. By the turn 50 i was able to get friendly only with one cultural CS (camp +nat wonder), but 5 turns later i had more than 1000 gold in my treasary what i immediately spent on second cultural CS (also found 3rd cultural CS on turn 65 or so). Conquest part was pretty easy - i didn't have any AIs caps founded on the hills - so i sent 2 archer + scout/warrior per cap. One surpsise in this part was that Shaka was able to get an expo, but that didn't help him of course. I conquered 6 civs in 93 turns, but limiting factor was culture. I closed liberty only at turn 100 and then i used a road to speed up my GM movement.
A played safe again and was able to ger my whole army to the Harald borders - just in case, but he had only archer :)

And it was turn 103 whem i used my GM within Harald's border, but after GM dissappered i message showed that i became dominant over Denmark... - i was really shocked and seating still for 5-10 sec... I was thinking: what the hell heck, how Harald was able to get more than 300 culture by turn 103, having built monument in 70ish - game lost... Then i remembered that there is one more level over influential... and yes - it was dominant - what a relief! I got tourism double of his culture amount. I was really not ready to see dominant instead of influential :)

So that was pretty funny, i don't know if Vadalaz will try to counter my result, but anyway sub 100 is possible (if i had had more luck with the cultural CS quests i would have probably won earlier - but again i got more than enough luck in my game.)

EDIT: screens added.

That's not luck that's phenomenal play! Well done Morcar! So tempted to go back...

And yes, this has happened to me twice in this gauntlet, for some reason when you settle on gems, some of the guys offer 2bpt instead of 1, and the second time this happened I checked and it had nothing to do with my military force. I had 1 scout 1 spearman, same as many other times.
 
Well done Morcar! Again, 3 cultural CS, 2 decent quests early and proper ruins = sub-110.
 
That's not luck that's phenomenal play! Well done Morcar! So tempted to go back...

And yes, this has happened to me twice in this gauntlet, for some reason when you settle on gems, some of the guys offer 2bpt instead of 1, and the second time this happened I checked and it had nothing to do with my military force. I had 1 scout 1 spearman, same as many other times.
I echo Bleidraner completely. Phenomenal play, Morcar_Olmig!

Vadalaz observations' about sub-110 really depend on the "proper ruins" and "early" CS quest parts.

I made the first quantum level with a T117 win. Yes, it had 3 Cultural CSes but they were in top corners when I started in lower midwest. Took a long time to find and complete quests for. Also not a single cultural ruin and didnt get a faith ruin for god-king until turn 40ish so I reached Liberty opener the long hard way. I did hit an Archery ruin... 8 turns before it would have been discovered. It did shave 8 turns off my time to chariots so I am not complaining too much.

Interesting point came up. Game doesn't show you the victory screen until the turn after you become influential or dominant with last civ. In my win, Carthage was at 295 culture when I did my GM tour and showed 298 on the saved win turn. Would I have not gotten the win with a tour 1 turn later if it showed 301 culture the turn after I achieved influential status?

Congrats again to all putting in wins so far.
 
I echo Bleidraner completely. Phenomenal play, Morcar_Olmig!

Vadalaz observations' about sub-110 really depend on the "proper ruins" and "early" CS quest parts.

I made the first quantum level with a T117 win. Yes, it had 3 Cultural CSes but they were in top corners when I started in lower midwest. Took a long time to find and complete quests for. Also not a single cultural ruin and didnt get a faith ruin for god-king until turn 40ish so I reached Liberty opener the long hard way. I did hit an Archery ruin... 8 turns before it would have been discovered. It did shave 8 turns off my time to chariots so I am not complaining too much.

Interesting point came up. Game doesn't show you the victory screen until the turn after you become influential or dominant with last civ. In my win, Carthage was at 295 culture when I did my GM tour and showed 298 on the saved win turn. Would I have not gotten the win with a tour 1 turn later if it showed 301 culture the turn after I achieved influential status?

Congrats again to all putting in wins so far.

Well done Zenmaster! That is very similar to my 120, I hit 5 CSs, but 2 gave me impossible quests (1 barb camp unreachable as surrounded completely by mountains and another crazy guy wanted me to build ToA or something like that), 1 gave me a barb camp (great), another one discover somebody and the other also gave me a barb camp, but very late. I had God King at t40, could not ally until t55 and had a culture ruin, but past liberty opener, and saved 8 turns on mining. War was my limiting factor, as I started my conquest run too late, first army cap needs to fall by t70ish, and first second army cap needs to fall around t80ish, otherwise you are in the 110-120 range.

By the way, I had half an hour and fooled around the settling on gems thing, using my saves. It looks as if what drives the AIs to offer 2gpt, even 3, is the gpt differential between you and them, and not the military power. The military power plays a role on whether they offer or not, but not on the quantity. I tested a few variants, and if you are making more than 6 they offer 2 gpt, if you are making more than 8gpt they even offer 3gpt. Then I tested what happens if I trade my gpt for cash to take the number down and I got offered nothing, the minute I declared war and got my gpt back, they went back to offering 1-2 gpt. Not convinced that is it, but it does seem that way, I did not test it exhaustively as I need to get the diplo game in. Needs more testing.

I will try again this one if I have time. Diplo not going well so far, so it may not happen, but if I have time I will try for a sub 110.
 
Nice game, Zenmaster. I think the situation you describe with an AI outculturing the GM bomb on the next turn happened to me once, and it wasn't a victory. Not 100% sure though.

Also, very interesting about gpt, thanks for testing that Bleidraner. I wonder if it works the same way on standard speed? I'll run some tests as well if I have time for it.
 
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