Minimum Wage: What's the Other Argument?

[Flying Pig]

Absolutely - but you can't necessarily tell one from the other simply by observing 'there are 3000 fewer people between 18 and 65 in work this year than there were last year', which is about as far as the statistics allow us to go.

 

[Zelig]

The Machines are Coming

To crack these cognitive and emotional puzzles, computers needed not only sophisticated, efficient algorithms, but also vast amounts of human-generated data, which can now be easily harvested from our digitized world. The results are dazzling. Most of what we think of as expertise, knowledge and intuition is being deconstructed and recreated as an algorithmic competency, fueled by big data.

And workers already feel like they are powerless as it is. Last week, low-wage workers around the country demonstrated for a $15-an-hour wage, calling it economic justice. Those with college degrees may not think that they share a problem with these workers, who are fighting to reclaim some power with employers, but they do. The fight is poised to move up the skilled-labor chain.

 

[El_Machinae]

Absolutely - but you can't necessarily tell one from the other simply by observing 'there are 3000 fewer people between 18 and 65 in work this year than there were last year', which is about as far as the statistics allow us to go.

That, and wages at the lower deciles plus the 'treading water' debt burden, I think.

Edit: also 'time to find re-employment' and 'new wage vs. old wage'

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A single security guard can replace a whole bunch of clerks with self-checkouts.

Do you have any idea what it takes to get a shoplifting conviction? That security guard has to see the shoplifter secrete something on their person. He then has to maintain contact until that person leaves the building, verifying that they have not put the item down somewhere. He then has to detain the person, without touching them until the police arrive. If you have one security guard, while he is doing that the philistines can strip the store to the walls.

The bunch of clerks are needed to intimidate would be shoplifters and keep them from shoplifting in the first place. One security guard isn't going to cut it.

 

[El_Machinae]

So, that all changes once we have RFID chips on our grocery items that auto-bill us when we walk out of the store, yeah?

 

[Flying Pig]

They have them in most packaged things now, so all that's really left for the shoplifters is the garlic.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Actually, all that's really left is stripping the packaging. By the way, how does the RFID chip in the item identify who is carrying it out of the store?

 

[El_Machinae]

The RFID in your VISA. Your walk up to the till, the scanner reads your cart to see how much you owe, you then tap your card to pay.

If you walk past the till with unpaid stuff in your cart, then the alarm goes.

And you're saying the RFID chip needs an anti-tamper device?

 

[Flying Pig]

Actually, all that's really left is stripping the packaging. By the way, how does the RFID chip in the item identify who is carrying it out of the store?

Well, an alarm goes off when the chap tries to leave - if someone else is trying to leave at the time, they look surprised and reach for their receipt, while presumably the guilty party carries on leaving - at which point any sensible security guard is going after them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, an alarm goes off when the chap tries to leave - if someone else is trying to leave at the time, they look surprised and reach for their receipt, while presumably the guilty party carries on leaving - at which point any sensible security guard is going after them.

El Mach was working towards an automatic billing system. Which would require the far more sophisticated "RFID this is what I am" chip as opposed to the current "RFID I haven't been disabled sound the alarm" chip. And would also require identifying the carrier so they could be billed.

And still be susceptible to stripping the packaging.

What is the solution to the stripping the packaging problem?

Making the packaging difficult, time consuming, and noisy to strip so that the person contemplating it knows they will be noticed by the clerks.

Ultimately, the RFID system requires just as many clerks as we currently have.

 

[El_Machinae]

And so why are there automatic tills at my grocery market, with one staff member troubleshooting for six tills?

 

[Zelig]

Do you have any idea what it takes to get a shoplifting conviction? That security guard has to see the shoplifter secrete something on their person. He then has to maintain contact until that person leaves the building, verifying that they have not put the item down somewhere. He then has to detain the person, without touching them until the police arrive. If you have one security guard, while he is doing that the philistines can strip the store to the walls.

The bunch of clerks are needed to intimidate would be shoplifters and keep them from shoplifting in the first place. One security guard isn't going to cut it.

Most grocery stores already have self-checkouts, and they work just fine.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Most grocery stores already have self-checkouts, and they work just fine.

They also still have very nearly the same staff they had before they went to self checking. If they didn't they would not be 'working just fine' and they are well aware of it. The self check lanes free up staff to move among the aisles, which reduces inventory shrinkage (theft). They also clean more, keep the shelves more orderly, and interact with customers. Self check is a win, but reducing staff isn't how it wins.

 

[Borachio]

I'm eagerly waiting for the day when the stuff is checked out automatically as I take it out of the door.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm eagerly waiting for the day when the stuff is checked out automatically as I take it out of the door.

Are you willing to be RFID chipped so the store knows who to bill?

 

[Borachio]

No! I intend having a bar-code tattooed across my forehead and they can scan me on the way out.

But honestly, this is all doable already. You only need all the goods to be tagged, and use contact-less debit cards.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Tagging all the goods is an issue. Currently the RFID chips on goods are a generic "still activated so sound the alarm" chip that does not carry actual item identification information, and even those generic chips are too expensive to be wasted on any items that are too inexpensive/too bulky to steal efficiently.

And the contactless card, upon introduction, has been very limited in scope. As far as I know they are only being used by gas companies (credit, not debit) and they are only willing because a simple camera set up to capture the license plate and verify identity is effective. I had a cool thing on my keychain to buy gas with, way back in the day, but there doesn't seem to have been any significant spreading of the application.

 

[Mise]

You can easily shoplift from a shop with self-checkouts just by scanning one item but weighing another. It just works by matching the weight of the item you scanned (known from its database) with the weight of the item you just put in the bagging area. So instead of putting the cheap 1L bottle of water in the bagging area, you put the 1kg of expensive meat in instead. Then you leave the water in your shopping basket and pay 39p for £25 worth of steak. I mean, it's really, really easy to shoplift now, and yet basically everyone still pays the right amount, because they're not thieving bastards.

Presumably, the amount of money they save by having a lower headcount outweighs the amount of money they lose from shoplifting.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, you don't need to be personally chipped. You just need to pay in order to walk out the store with the goods in your cart. It's not rocket science.

Remember, this RFID technology is on a exponential tech curve. Sure, the idea isn't feasible with $0.10 RFID chips (unless you've got expensive goods). But with a $0.01 chip? A $0.001 chip?

 

[Flying Pig]

Does the meat not sound the alarm when you leave, though?