BETA TEST: 1.24b4
- Thread starter Xyth
- Start date
Have you installed the DLL from this post? It won't fix your current game, but it should fix unit costs for future games. Let me know if it doesn't.
Ahh I had missed that post, thanks!
I'm realizing midway through a game on the Africa map that the Renaissance era is going to be rough on the pre-made maps since Saltpeter is now required for all gun units; are there plans to update the scenario maps with this version's resources?
Other assorted thoughts:
- The early game feels a lot rougher, and I'm not quite sure why. Dissent is harsher; several civs, nearly including myself, had civil wars before the Classical era even began and I'm only playing on Warlord difficulty.
- Taking commerce off the Palace really stings. Having an inland/non-commerce rich start location is almost debilitating now.
- Weirdly, I almost miss the Stone/Marble restriction on Idolatry! The first game I started was against Cre/Ind Djoser, who has both Stone and Marble on the Africa map and was slamming out every single early game wonder before I even had a chance to start them (again: playing on Warlord). Ritual being a starting tech now also exacerbates the problem, I think. It's impossible to compete with two double-speed bonuses that early.
- Theocracy being on Priesthood now feels too late, although that could just be a personal annoyance; I'm used to switching to Theocracy before I get my first religion so I get the immediate +3 happiness and can spread it to all my cities. Having it not available until a good deal after my first GP pops up is frustrating.
- I'm unsure about hammers on farms. Agrarianism is an absolute staple for me but it feels OP, maybe? I can have hammers on literally every non-jungle tile now and that feels like something I maybe shouldn't be able to have.
- The lower yield from resources hurts a little bit, although again, more of a personal annoyance. Makes city placement planning a little tougher.
- I love the new resource icons!!
- I like that the random specialist aspect has been replaced on the revelation tenets. I was never able to game that system to any benefit.
- I'm SO glad you moved tech trading back; it limits diplo options for a while but also feels way more natural. Does feel weird to have gold trading available before tech trading, though, since there's really nothing else to make a one-time trade for.
- Animism still feels super weak. Even on maps with NWs, you're only really ever going to have a couple of them per empire, and on maps without there's basically no bonus at all. Is there any chance it could be strengthened? I almost never play animist religions because the faith bonus just can't ever compare with the other four starting tenets.
All I can think of at the moment. I'm sure I'll have more as I keep playing
Other assorted thoughts:
- The early game feels a lot rougher, and I'm not quite sure why. Dissent is harsher; several civs, nearly including myself, had civil wars before the Classical era even began and I'm only playing on Warlord difficulty.
- Taking commerce off the Palace really stings. Having an inland/non-commerce rich start location is almost debilitating now.
- Weirdly, I almost miss the Stone/Marble restriction on Idolatry! The first game I started was against Cre/Ind Djoser, who has both Stone and Marble on the Africa map and was slamming out every single early game wonder before I even had a chance to start them (again: playing on Warlord). Ritual being a starting tech now also exacerbates the problem, I think. It's impossible to compete with two double-speed bonuses that early.
- Theocracy being on Priesthood now feels too late, although that could just be a personal annoyance; I'm used to switching to Theocracy before I get my first religion so I get the immediate +3 happiness and can spread it to all my cities. Having it not available until a good deal after my first GP pops up is frustrating.
- I'm unsure about hammers on farms. Agrarianism is an absolute staple for me but it feels OP, maybe? I can have hammers on literally every non-jungle tile now and that feels like something I maybe shouldn't be able to have.
- The lower yield from resources hurts a little bit, although again, more of a personal annoyance. Makes city placement planning a little tougher.
- I love the new resource icons!!
- I like that the random specialist aspect has been replaced on the revelation tenets. I was never able to game that system to any benefit.
- I'm SO glad you moved tech trading back; it limits diplo options for a while but also feels way more natural. Does feel weird to have gold trading available before tech trading, though, since there's really nothing else to make a one-time trade for.
- Animism still feels super weak. Even on maps with NWs, you're only really ever going to have a couple of them per empire, and on maps without there's basically no bonus at all. Is there any chance it could be strengthened? I almost never play animist religions because the faith bonus just can't ever compare with the other four starting tenets.
All I can think of at the moment. I'm sure I'll have more as I keep playing
Ah yes, I forgot to mention that I haven't updated any of the maps yet. Volunteers welcome! Planning to review after beta4 is out, I may still be removing/replacing some of them. The Africa map is definitely being kept though.
It's because some of the starting civics are medium dissent again. I haven't finished compensating for that yet.
Agreed. In beta4 the Palace will grant +2 commerce.
In beta4 you'll also need to have Fledgling culture before you can build any world wonders. I'm also considering reducing wonder production bonuses from resources to +50%. That said, Djoser is one of the best wonder builders in HR, I'd expect him to nab the early wonders in most games.
Farms were too weak in 1.23, but I may have made them a bit too strong now (in conjunction with civics). Will review.
This was part of a series of changes aiming to have cities grow at a more appropriate pace over the course of the game. Cities getting too big too early isn't good for balance.
I borrowed most of them from Realism Invictus. There's a few more I haven't put in yet too.
It needs something to grant free priests in addition to Natural Wonders. Not sure what at the moment.
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I don't PAK betas, makes it easier for people to replace files for testing. Final release will be. Make sure you haven't put the leader art in a PAK, does nothing but waste memory.
hey again, im enjoying the beauty of the beta, really lovely.
a couple of things though :
- i feel on the early beginning fo 0-300 turns, theres low amount of buildings, maybe more would be nice, a matter of taste.
- time between turns, now this is a bit hindering my pleasure of playing, the turn time - 14 civs, archipelago standard map size, takes 10+ second, i feel thats a bit high, compared to other mods i tried.
other then these, you've done remarkable job.
a couple of things though :
- i feel on the early beginning fo 0-300 turns, theres low amount of buildings, maybe more would be nice, a matter of taste.
- time between turns, now this is a bit hindering my pleasure of playing, the turn time - 14 civs, archipelago standard map size, takes 10+ second, i feel thats a bit high, compared to other mods i tried.
other then these, you've done remarkable job.
dretnoth
Warlord
-About that dll.
+Yes. install the mod, put the u fix. Star the new game. use new game save file e. but.. i rewrite old save that have to ben on unit fix. but from that lost interface.
I used both file to save or load. That cant be the suspect, right?
+Well on Prince difficulty i dint think i have to much units that i must recall back my 1. invasion party because the cost for support got to high.
+But i will like if you just check the math on this to be sure.
-That martial lav
+Well producing spy point can directly fight against dissent. So i vas wondering if the Ai whose one city going soon meet the rebellion level. Can set production of other cities that is unsettled or will be soon unsettled to Spy point.
+If they work production will pass all to spy point there will be chance that they will not will to join freedom and when rebellion occur they dissent will be reset to certain level. (Stable?)
(In strategy game Ster trek: Bird of federation when morale on system drop on point where production get low. Player can chose martial law that will have boost to morale but cut off the entire production.)
+So aim not sure if having 100% spy point production from cca. Middle Ages era will have in this scenario some effect to protect the AI empire from fall into roller coaster of breaking apart.
+Maybe if there is some building option like some fake building/unit that will delete after some time to be able to build again (maybe limited amount to size of empire) and cause transfer culture research and production to battle dissent.
++NO! Better idea will be if there is a bar of time on how long can empire put cities on martial law. The duration can be increased by the size of population, civic and techs.
Say it can be 10 turns (One city fill the bar on 10 turns. Two on 5 turns. ... five on 2.) when it that happen all cities stop producing martial law and will be not be able to pick it up until at last 25% of free turn per city will be available.
-Have accumulated amount of spy points some effect against dissent on empire level? ... That will maybe be not good idea.
-About that saltpeter.
+I recheck it and it still give me bad feelings. the differences between the units is not that hig if you dint compare anything to Rifleman. Mostly im worried maybe because it give to long gap between available units.
The canon since have attack 10 and +25%to city att, but trebuchet have 4 +100%city attc.
The resource give a payment for multi role units but itself can be a serious economic power maintainer. I now how it feel dint have iron but don't have this resource can have similar or bigger effect.
+But maybe if we think if Grenadier can use another substance for bombs to. (Can coal be that explosive? or gas? Oil, sure oil must be. (Using prime timber to make specific wooden coal will be maybe sin.) The salt bomb can be realy pain to, but if we use fuzzy drink and sugar mentol pill, we can have a cola bomb to. (Okey, that one is joke, sorry. ) Or maybe if we move the grenadier unit appearance sooner in tech page, will help the balance to.
But still fun, god game.
+Yes. install the mod, put the u fix. Star the new game. use new game save file e. but.. i rewrite old save that have to ben on unit fix. but from that lost interface.
I used both file to save or load. That cant be the suspect, right?
+Well on Prince difficulty i dint think i have to much units that i must recall back my 1. invasion party because the cost for support got to high.
+But i will like if you just check the math on this to be sure.
-That martial lav
+Well producing spy point can directly fight against dissent. So i vas wondering if the Ai whose one city going soon meet the rebellion level. Can set production of other cities that is unsettled or will be soon unsettled to Spy point.
+If they work production will pass all to spy point there will be chance that they will not will to join freedom and when rebellion occur they dissent will be reset to certain level. (Stable?)
(In strategy game Ster trek: Bird of federation when morale on system drop on point where production get low. Player can chose martial law that will have boost to morale but cut off the entire production.)
+So aim not sure if having 100% spy point production from cca. Middle Ages era will have in this scenario some effect to protect the AI empire from fall into roller coaster of breaking apart.
+Maybe if there is some building option like some fake building/unit that will delete after some time to be able to build again (maybe limited amount to size of empire) and cause transfer culture research and production to battle dissent.
++NO! Better idea will be if there is a bar of time on how long can empire put cities on martial law. The duration can be increased by the size of population, civic and techs.
Say it can be 10 turns (One city fill the bar on 10 turns. Two on 5 turns. ... five on 2.) when it that happen all cities stop producing martial law and will be not be able to pick it up until at last 25% of free turn per city will be available.
-Have accumulated amount of spy points some effect against dissent on empire level? ... That will maybe be not good idea.
-About that saltpeter.
+I recheck it and it still give me bad feelings. the differences between the units is not that hig if you dint compare anything to Rifleman. Mostly im worried maybe because it give to long gap between available units.
The canon since have attack 10 and +25%to city att, but trebuchet have 4 +100%city attc.
The resource give a payment for multi role units but itself can be a serious economic power maintainer. I now how it feel dint have iron but don't have this resource can have similar or bigger effect.
+But maybe if we think if Grenadier can use another substance for bombs to. (Can coal be that explosive? or gas? Oil, sure oil must be. (Using prime timber to make specific wooden coal will be maybe sin.) The salt bomb can be realy pain to, but if we use fuzzy drink and sugar mentol pill, we can have a cola bomb to. (Okey, that one is joke, sorry.
) Or maybe if we move the grenadier unit appearance sooner in tech page, will help the balance to.But still fun, god game.
Unlike units/structures/terrain, leader art is loaded on demand from disk. Putting it in an FPK loads it all into memory at launch. Given there's ~600MB of leader art in HR, that's ~600MB of memory no longer available for other purposes – meaning more MAFs.
It's a trade off between quantity and quality. More buildings means each building needs to be less powerful/interesting, or things get out of balance. Increased art (and this memory) requirements have to be considered too. Currently there's comparatively fewer buildings unlocked in the Medieval and Industrial eras, so they'll be the priority if more are added.
In order to keep HR compatible with OS X I use Python for tasks that other modders would use C++ for. This is the main reason. Things have got a bit slower than I expected over the last few versions, I need to see if there's any further optimization I can do. I'll be doing this once beta4 is out. Additionally, for these betas I leave some debugging routines switched on that can slow things down a tiny bit.
I'll be uploading beta4 in a day or two, lets see if the problem persists in that and check the maths then.
Espionage reduction is per city, there is no civilization-wide effect. A lot of what you describe is essentially done by using the espionage slider or having problem cities build espionage directly. I'm slowly teaching the AI to do this.
I've made some adjustments to ensure Saltpeter will be quite common on random maps. Still needs to be placed on the real world maps though.
That's a good idea. I've set them to require Saltpeter or Bitumen. Bitumen makes sense since it was potentially an ingredient of Greek Fire and other incendiary 'naptha' substances used in historical times.
Joij21
🔥Hail Satan!🔥
I never really liked the grenadier unit. It was always in fancy uniform and unlocked late enough to represent a grenadier of the late 18th century yet grenadiers no longer used grenades by that time. The only time grenadiers used grenades was during the early gunpowder age. By the 18th century, line infantry tactics had already advanced enough to the point where a person would be shot before they could get close enough to throw a primitive black powder grenade. At that time grenadiers carried the standard equipment of most infantry units and were only called grenadiers in name only. The only difference between them and other forces was their elite training and fancier uniforms. However the vanilla grenadiers instead are trying to represent them from both eras by having them carry the early grenades and wear the uniforms of the later era of their use. To me it bothers me because I feel like Firaxis was trying to represent later grenadiers because of when their unlocked but at the same time still gave them the grenades and had them unlocked at chemistry. I think they should have their grenades replaced with muskets and be unlocked by a different tech than chemistry or reskinned as the older variant that did use grenades and maybe be unlocked earlier at maybe gunpowder.
Agreed.
I've left them as they are because the art doesn't simply exist to reskin them more appropriately, nor to give them all muskets. However, I am going to change their stats so that they're part of the 'Skirmisher' line (Skirmisher -> Longbowman -> Grenadier). Collateral and withdrawal chance makes much more sense for a guy lobbing a grenade. I just need to figure out what to do about their bonus vs. Riflemen, whether its better to keep it, drop it, or if it should go to a different unit.
dretnoth
Warlord
Are we talking about whole new unit that will take care about that anti Rifleman bonus?
It pop up on mi mind something like "musketeer" but not the one that use muskets but rapiers/cords. Like the form story about tree musketeers. (Appearance french musketeer)
But maybe aim little off on time line when they still some use melee weapons often that long guns. And if they its pistols. If i remember correctly they use they manewruably to avoid being shot.
So it will dont need saltpeter but need iron or copper. And have bonus in fight again the Rifleman. Because when grenadier have bonus only on offense the system always put to fight him something else that rifleman.
Or bonus against guns units can have full plate armored soldier. Like Halapaga guards. Maybe wrong idea.
Joij21
🔥Hail Satan!🔥
Because riflemen in the game represent those from the mid 19th century I don't believe it would make much sense to give the grenadier a bonus against them. Grenadiers are after all armed with muskets and the Napoleanic Wars was one of the last time large numbers of them saw battle. Even though dedicated regiments of grenadiers have survived passed then even to today, their purpose has become mostly ceremonial. I think the anti-rifleman bonus should go to a new unit. By the mid 19th century gatling guns were being used by various armies of the time for anti-infantry purposes. I think a gatling gun unit could also be a nice proto machine gun that could later be upgraded to the machine gunner. Plus I believe a lot of other modders have made the unit art for gatling guns.
Hardest part of adding a new unit is finding or making art for all 56 civilizations. I'd have to browse through my unit art folders and see there's enough unused material to make it plausible. Not a priority at the moment though, maybe after 1.24 is done.
Is it intended that the Extra Cargo promotion gives 1 cargo space to ships which originally had 0? I'm playing as Ent/Ind Dharmasetu and only just noticed that my Dromons could have been shipping units around.
ETA: Also, are you supposed to be able to load ships onto other ships?
ETA: Also, are you supposed to be able to load ships onto other ships?
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Yes, this is intended.
Definitely not intended! Which ships did this happen with?
