[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

SittinDown · Sep 17, 2020

Good thoughts:

GA is an interesting option.
You're right - I wasn't planning on Libbing DR - that would hurt my soul.
We can't really bulb chemistry - we'd need Printing Press / Scientific Method / Physics / first.
The Scientists will be good for bulbs on Scientific Method / Electricity, but after that probably less good.
I think we have time - nobody else has EDU yet, so we can make a good tech choice here, and the GA frees us up by letting us build Angkor faster.

I like the GA idea, and tech path is Chemistry -> Lib -> Steel. Then we cannon the world.

Very loose tech plan proposal -> Guilds -> Banking -> Printing Press -> Replaceable parts -> Steam -> Assembly for the slow-path, and Scientific -> Physics -> Electricity for the bulb path. Plus side-steps along the way to Biology / Communism / Econ / [Nationalism, Rifling <- draft rifles] when appropriate.

Scientist bulbs are on our critical path to Radio and Superconductors, so I do anticipate some bulbing, but I didn't do any of the math, and I think bulbs lose some power when you're restricted on cities, because their benefit is population based.

kcd_swede · Sep 17, 2020

I would suggest that Theocracy would suit our needs better than OR, assuming we have the missionaries we need and/or a monastary of the right faith. OR for the build, with US to perhaps rush buy, then at last turn of GA switch to Theo and Repr again? Do we wish to consider Police State and Vassalage?
Recall that GPP are doubled during GA so hire as many of the type of GP we want to generate as possible. A GEng or a GPro solves our Prophet Wonder problem.

Let's skip DR... Bismark has it and I think he has gold so will build SpMin quickly.
Bismark about to finish Optics, so probably heads to Astro next instead of Edu, which is good. Keep an eye on what he techs. Arabia is the one to watch for when he gets Edu.

2808 beakers for Chemistry, and 929 beakers left on Lib, Thats about what Saladin has left (2808 on EDU and 2184 on Lib) so it is a race. Oxford and pillage gold will be needed to win it.

I calculate 8t of GA will put us about 86hammers away from Angor Wat, which would cost 516Gold in US to buy. Alternatively, we should be in whipping range by then, costing about 4 pop? Another mine and some starving gets makes it better.

Mop up Russia to keep the gold flowing. We need more to finance the Lib(Steel) race.

Esp on Arabia to see demographics, maybe,

Now I'm out of ideas.

SittinDown · Sep 17, 2020

I'll look at the buildings we still need. OR is a real boost to construction projects, and allows for profitable fail gold, better than Wealth. But the +2 free EXP is nice. +5 exp cannons means two promotions out of the gate. A stack of 10 of those + our land forces to match ought to be able to roll through any pre-rifling rival. Just gotta disconnect metals early and often. Pillage fighting is fun - a lot more tactical variety.

SittinDown · Sep 17, 2020

Update:

Golden Aged with the GS. Moai + GA = very productive.
Angkor Wat is ours.
Destroyed another of Peter's cities.
His caravels are a major impediment to landing reinforcements, and we're getting low on siege, but he's hemmed in and no threat.
Bismark and France are BOTH plotting.
Teched Chemistry quickly thanks to the GA.
Finished Liberalism.
Got Steel.
Generated a GS. settling a GS even in Oxford takes 62 turns to break-even on bulbing, so I bulbed Printing Press, which will be ready in 4 turns. That opens up Scientific Method, or after Guilds / Banking, Replaceable Parts.

Building Cannons and Frigates. And an Observatory in Scientist, and the Heroic Epic in Cam.

Got another Great General. I kept him on dry ground this time until we get a Frigate to protect the galleons.

(So far we have beat about 5 caravels and lost one empty galleon).

Spoiler Log :

kcd_swede · Sep 18, 2020

Sounds like you got a lot done! :thumbsup:

As per my usual routine, I'll take a look and give my thoughts during the day. Now... :coffee:

kcd_swede · Sep 18, 2020

Well, after looking, I don't have any advice. :shifty:

Looks like things are going according to plan. Keep killing and pillaging, build a second force. The duns are done. Probably we should figure out a reasonable tech completion date and judge the forces needed to win at the same time... could waste a lot of turns if we max one and have to wait for the other... weekends usually give me some time to do more in-depth planning like that, but don't wait for it, just keep on like you have been.

SittinDown · Sep 18, 2020

I'm with you on that assessment. I play more mid-week, and less on weekends, so I'll put a few turns in there each night, but please keep the analysis coming.

The next 10 turns seem pretty obvious, in terms of "Make Cannons, and a few Frigates", get done with Peter, and keep the science going.

Tech path is roughly going to be Printing Press ......... then, if I recall, Scientific Method is not one you usually Bulb, because we already get the double-arrow discount. So Scientific Method then maybe bulb Physics while we slow-tech Guilds / Banking.

Physics -> Electricity and RP -> Steam are nice for economy.

We will need military tradition for West Point eventually, but I tend to want to wait for Rifling for that.

kcd_swede · Sep 20, 2020

Corporation.
Mass Media
Super Conductors
Steel
Industrialism
Communism
Mil Trad for West Point

I count about 98,000 beakers to go (minimum, does not include rifling). At our current max rate about 400 bpt (which could be improved) that would be 245 turns, which is clearly unacceptable. We could conquer the world three times in that many turns. :run:

More realistically, say we can halve that, to 120 turns, using bulbs and maxing specialists, building science buildings, getting tech rebate for other civs having a tech, and having pre-reqs...

I think we'll need to trade for as much tech as possible. Makes warring harder, but that clearly is not our bottleneck. Taking tech in peace deal is not as good from a tech standpoint, because we need AI to tech some of the things we need FOR us. And so helping the AI tech rate helps ours. Might be worth it to give France EDU for Guilds and give Arabs EDU for Music. Its a rip-off but will speed them up considerably. Maybe the Music trade isn't worth it, though. IDK, but slow AI tech is hurting us at this point. Just make sure we don't let anyone get too big to fail. France says "We have our reasons" to deny music, so he's building Sistines. Maybe after that is gone we get both techs for edu... but not sure waiting helps us, it could take him 30t.

That said, we need to raze about 35 cities (expect more like 45 as they build easy weak but annoying cities). Best case thats about 100t, we'll need two maybe 3 kill stacks... with cannons thats no problem unless someone gets infantry or artillery (Grens no fun but not big deal).

So yeah, we need ideas to improve our tech finish date above all else, in my estimation. :deadhorse:

SittinDown · Sep 21, 2020

Good thoughts.
I'll take a second look. Armies are expensive, and building them is expensive too.

Noble Zarkon · Sep 21, 2020

Hello team - are you ok for finishing on time? If you're going to need an extension I would like to keep it short but we can think about giving you another weekend perhaps if you think you will need it?

SittinDown · Sep 21, 2020

I'm planning on playing a bunch of turns this week. It's not going to be our best work, but I don't think we'll need it.

SittinDown · Sep 22, 2020

Update:

Played around with tech trades. We don't have time to debate each one, so I hope you like what I got.
- Guilds -> France for Education.
- Music + Banking -> Arabia for Printing Press.
- ~250 gold for dumb techs to SB and Bismark.
We can now tech Economics for the free Great Merchant.
Our econ is way more effective at 100% than 0%. But now we have banks, which could help in Engineer / Vienne. (~20 gpt each, plus more if we run merchant specialists, and get wall street).
Getting Scientific Method -> Biology seems pretty vital, because our lack of food is killing our ability to run specialists. [Though it will obsolete the Great Library].
War with Peter is going fine.

Spoiler Turn Log :

SittinDown · Sep 22, 2020

I am planning on playing earlier during the day on Wednesday / Thursday / Friday. (Starting around 12 pm / 1 pm UTC, and playing until I'm tired, with a few breaks here and there). So ideally, I can play a many turns, get some feedback, and play more with little delay, or we can screen share potentially.

SittinDown · Sep 22, 2020

If all cities work wealth, we can run close to 100% slider, which generates about 360 bpt currently.

kcd_swede · Sep 22, 2020

SittinDown said:
If all cities work wealth, we can run close to 100% slider, which generates about 360 bpt currently.

OK, not great but it is what it is.
I guess if we look at cities captured a cash cows... avg about 120 gold for each city, plus another 50gold for pillage tiles, there is enough gold out there for our needs if we can break it right. With that in mind, think of SB as an emergency cash source. If we've got a stack waiting for galleons, best get some cash out of them to earn their keep.
Civics could also be key, police state cuts cannon build cost by 25%... vassalage cuts # of units that pay maint costs, and perhaps even Theo does too (I forget). If we do lots of wars, Merc free specialist might be worth more than Free Trade trade routes.

Steal gold espionage is too weak to bother with.

I'll take a look and see if I come up with anything specific.

SittinDown · Sep 22, 2020

I'm thinking getting esp on Saladin will be good - we can see Bismark's tech now, which is good enough, so we can probably back off on him a bit. France is a foot-note - weak ally. Nobody has ASTRO yet, so we still have a monopoly on big boats for now.

kcd_swede · Sep 22, 2020

Looks OK. France and Germany plotting... but can't reach anyone except us or Arabia. Hope the latter. Might make sense to join if so, and if tactical situation allows. Maybe nothing comes of it, though. Or they dogpile Peter to no effect without astro. Agree on the esp to Arabia. I think right now its mostly just to slog through until the juggernaut starts rolling. Give'em hell! :ar15:

SittinDown · Sep 22, 2020

Update:

Got Economics. Got a merchant.
Had some so-so warring with Peter. My tactics were not great.
Cannons are on the way, and Peter is almost done. Nobody has DOW'ed yet.
Traded a few things for gold.

Going to play more in a little while, but I wanted to walk away to clear my head.

Spoiler log :

Zhary · Sep 23, 2020

Hello
I got some time to play tomorrow due to some sick leave if you want a release sd.

Some thoughts about the game:
Change to free market is a clear economic benefit for us now.

I hesitate a bit about conquest maybe UN is faster due to tech trade. Otherwise take one more city from Peter leave 2-3 muskeets for checking and then attack Bismarck or sal before they become to big and get frigs would be an idea.
For wonders if someone get nat we should trade for it and compete in the Taj ga race for artist wonder. Otherwise Hollywood is a backup. Eiffel for merchant so we can skip mm and finally kreml for spy.
About great person I would save the merchant for cereal since it is a corporation on the cheapest techtree to labs and go for a golden age by physics scients and communism spy. The next scientist can bulb physics and during the Ga we could generate enough scientist points to bulb radio and electricity.
For tech, maybe bio->commu(we could earn some money by the kreml whipping bonus)->rifles finish bulb techs when possible and then just click on ind and SC for the endgame.

SittinDown · Sep 23, 2020

Hey @Zhary - i had similar thoughts. Conquest is going to be a challenge, and it seems like a good time for some civics changes. We kind of figured we were already going to come in late, so might as well go for a unique victory. But UN will almost certainly be faster. Though I'm not totally clear how we'll win the vote given the current diplomatic climate.

I kind of like going for Taj too.
I am able to play NOW. [A rarity when we're all awake and able to play]. Does anyone want to / have the means to do some streaming / sharing? Or should we just do it all here?

I was gearing towards Bio. I was also thinking of saving the Great Merchant, to go for Mills (or Sushi, but then Medicine is an extra tech, but a lot more food).

Nationhood + Globe Theater would be nice for conquest.
Attacking Bismark or Saladin is the next thing. We have 3 boats of cannons on the way to Peter, who is almost out of units, and 2 Frigates on his coast. He should lose his last decent city next turn, and the rest will be bad cities on bad land, but if we make peace now, he'll rapidly rebuild.

I am not a great warmonger, and I have made this war take a lot longer than I hoped.

The AI's tech pace has accelerated since we started trading with them, which is good, but now they're getting 2-techs from rifling.

[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

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