[NFP] Portugal is the last NFP Civilization confirmed. Also... Zombies??!!

[Duke William of Normandy]

It is absolutely uncalled for to accuse the developers of sexism. No history game ever has had this many female leaders included - they’ve gone above and beyond. They have proven time and time again to be extremely thoughtful about their depictions of cultures and nations in this game in nearly all aspects.

This. THIS. They have been accused so many times of being too feminist because of their inclusion of some Female Leaders, mainly Catherine de Medici and Gorgo, I believe.

Moderator Action: *Snip*
Maybe we should judge people based on their accomplishments instead of their gender. Luiza de Guzman was an interesting choice, but ultimately, Firaxis decided to not include her. IS it disappointing? Maybe, somewhat. Is it sexist? No.
Moderator Action: *Snip*

\And Luisa de Guzman >>>>>>>

I can't really judge whether Joao III was better than Luiza de Guzman, or Luiza de Guzman was better than Joao III. It's your opinion.


Before this gets out of hand, though, let's just agree to disagree, ok?

Moderator Action: Reminder to not engage with posts that can be considered flaming/trolling. Report problematic posts to the moderators. ~ LK

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Moderator Action: *Snip* Yes, most leaders were made since we live in a patriarchal world, but Civ isn't an accurate depiction of history, they could have CHOSEN to keep the female ratio at least, either with Portugual or someone else.Moderator Action: *Snip*

They put in Gorgo who could have easily been Leonidas though. Her ability is Thermopylae and her Agenda is "With your shield or on it."
England has been lead by at least one female in every game, even France has two female leaders. They've literally gone out of their way to put in more female leaders in this game. To be fair they've also never outright established a female quota for every cycle/expansion. It's just a pattern that us civfanatics have caught on.
That's all I have to say.

And Luisa de Guzman >>>>>>>

Nothing against her but I'm glad personally we are getting a ruler from Portugal's golden age, before the Spanish Union, even if it happens to be a male. Because honestly Portugal's most competent rulers just so happened to be male. That's not necessarily sexist, but the truth.

Moderator Action: Reminder to not engage with posts that can be considered flaming/trolling. Report problematic posts to the moderators. ~ LK

 

[PiR]

Isn't Napoleon a Great General in the game? In a way he's there for France then.

 

[jsurpless]

Ughhh, zombies

 

[AntSou]

I'm more interested in the music, and which artist(s) they worked with (if any), than the selection of leader. I'd be happy with anything other than Maria I.

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

Moderator Action: *Snip*

On a serious note so that the moderators won't complain, has anyone thought about what Joao and Portugal's abilities will be to differentiate themselves from Spain? I think most obviously they will have a coastal start bias, but I don't know if they will include the Feitoria. I would like to see some sort of coastal interaction with the feitoria itself. Maybe to stimulate the fact that many feitoria/trading posts were built on various islands and peninsulas, it could be built on coastal tiles and act like an island? Maybe it is a unique district?

Portugal would synergize well with a monopolies mode

Moderator Action: Reminder to not engage with posts that can be considered flaming/trolling. Report problematic posts to the moderators. ~ LK

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I think the question everyone is afraid to ask is are they FEMALE zombies

 

[fy00sh]

Moderator Action: *Snip*

Imho while it is important to represent the impact that powerful women have had on history, and while it is to an extent a good thing to disproportionately represent female leaders relative to how frequently they occurred, because otherwise many people will remain undereducated about their existence, there's a limit to how far they can push that without it being a bad thing. If they start including okayish to bad female picks over obvious male picks too often (think Seondeok over Sejong) then people will start dismissing the game's leader picks as "feminist pandering" instead of taking the opportunity to learn about and be more appreciative of women's impact on history, which should be the goal. And in a way, having a gender ratio that's too balanced risks giving the false impression that historical patriarchy wasn't actually that oppressive, that great female leaders got into power all the time, that it's a "feminist machination" the idea that in many places, for much of history, political power was a boys' club that women were gatekept from. Showcasing the impact and achievements of powerful women throughout history is important, sure, but not when it implicitly makes their struggles seem like they weren't actually that bad. It's not sexist for a game about historical civilizations and their leaders to reflect the fact that men have been disproportionately represented among leaders.

So anyways yeah as a nonbinary individual myself, I'm fine with Joao III as Portugal's leader, and I don't mind that the gender ratio has been broken. My REAL concern is this: Will the game show his name as Joao Iii on the loading screen? It probably will, and I'm more than ready to hate it.

Moderator Action: Reminder to not engage with posts that can be considered flaming/trolling. Report problematic posts to the moderators. ~ LK

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I'm more interested in the music, and which artist(s) they worked with (if any), than the selection of leader. I'd be happy with anything other than Maria I.

Remember everyone, it doesn't matter the Civilizations: The music will always slap!

On a serious note so that the moderators won't complain, has anyone thought about what Joao and Portugal's abilities will be to differentiate themselves from Spain? I think most obviously they will have a coastal start bias, but I don't know if they will include the Feitoria. I would like to see some sort of coastal interaction with the feitoria itself. Maybe to stimulate the fact that many feitoria/trading posts were built on various islands and peninsulas, it could be built on coastal tiles and act like an island? Maybe it is a unique district?

Portugal would synergize well with a monopolies mode

That is also my main concern with Portugal: How do we make them distinctively non-Spanish in terms of Civ Abilities? Your Idea could work, but we'll see on Friday, if the official Firaxis tweet appears.

Imho while it is important to represent the impact that powerful women have had on history, and while it is to an extent a good thing to disproportionately represent female leaders relative to how frequently they occurred, because otherwise many people will remain undereducated about their existence, there's a limit to how far they can push that without it being a bad thing. If they start including okayish to bad female picks over obvious male picks too often (think Seondeok over Sejong) then people will start dismissing the game's leader picks as "feminist pandering" instead of taking the opportunity to learn about and be more appreciative of women's impact on history, which should be the goal. And in a way, having a gender ratio that's too balanced risks giving the false impression that historical patriarchy wasn't actually that oppressive, that great female leaders got into power all the time, that it's a "feminist machination" the idea that in many places, for much of history, political power was a boys' club that women were gatekept from. Showcasing the impact and achievements of powerful women throughout history is important, sure, but not when it implicitly makes their struggles seem like they weren't actually that bad. It's not sexist for a game about historical civilizations and their leaders to reflect the fact that men have been disproportionately represented among leaders.

So anyways yeah as a nonbinary individual myself, I'm fine with Joao III as Portugal's leader, and I don't mind that the gender ratio has been broken.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!! This is what we should be thinking when it comes to this can of worms, and I'm glad you aren't upset by this.

My REAL concern is this: Will the game show his name as Joao Iii on the loading screen? It probably will, and I'm more than ready to hate it.

Oh... Yep, I'm ready to hate it as well.

 

[ferretbacon]

On a serious note so that the moderators won't complain, has anyone thought about what Joao and Portugal's abilities will be to differentiate themselves from Spain? I think most obviously they will have a coastal start bias, but I don't know if they will include the Feitoria. I would like to see some sort of coastal interaction with the feitoria itself. Maybe to stimulate the fact that many feitoria/trading posts were built on various islands and peninsulas, it could be built on coastal tiles and act like an island? Maybe it is a unique district?

Portugal would synergize well with a monopolies mode

I think regarding Feitorias as a possible UI that it would be cool if you could build them on unclaimed coastal tiles adjacent to a strategic/luxury resource. They could give you access to the strategic/luxury resource (without the need to work them) by giving you the land immediately surrounding the tile upon which the Feitoria was built (just like a newly founded city). Maybe this UI could be tied to their UU as a single charge ability to prevent absolute spam?

Instead of being destroyed by taking over a Portuguese city like other civs' UIs, you could simply raze the Feitoria during war, which would remove it entirely. To help protect them, however, perhaps the Feitoria could give a stationed unit a defensive bonus like a fort.

 

[Lokreah]

Obviously if it's not an equally distributed ratio it, must be sexism. History is not equal. History does not care about equality. History does not care about equity. This is a video game. The creators have their own vision, and are most likely picking candidates with the most wow factor and who are relatively interesting.

I personally wanted Jikonsase for the Haudenosaunee, as not too many tribes were matrilineal and there's a lot that could have been done for then, despite stepping on toes of the Cree and Vietnam.

 

[AntSou]

I think the question everyone is afraid to ask is are they FEMALE zombies

Female zombies with distinctly male-looking zombie icons.



"Sarah Breedlove"

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I wish they did that with every Great Person. Do you know how many times I've internally raged at seeing Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahrawi look like a bald, Caucasian man with a wired mustache?

 

[AntSou]

I wish they did that with every Great Person. Do you know how many times I've internally raged at seeing Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahrawi look like a bald, Caucasian man with a wired mustache?

They could use drawings of the actual people as icons in Civ 7.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Moderator Action: Alright everyone, there's been enough talk concerning gender representation. Several off-topic & flaming posts have been edited or deleted. Time to get back on topic discussing Portugal & the upcoming patch.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[fy00sh]

Female zombies with distinctly male-looking zombie icons.



"Sarah Breedlove"

No no see, this is our trans representation. /s

But seriously yeah fixing GP models should be super easy, I really wish they'd get on that. Also diversity in zombie models would be nice, even (or especially) if all of the models are of indeterminate gender. If I'm gonna play with zombies, I really want it to *feel* like I'm indiscriminately converting every living man woman and enby into a convulsing undead monster. If they're giving us zombies they better at least go all-in!

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

So, on topic... What do you think "Traps" and "Mutation Strength" signal about these Zombies?

 

[PiR]

I wish they did that with every Great Person. Do you know how many times I've internally raged at seeing Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahrawi look like a bald, Caucasian man with a wired mustache?

Same for spies. One bald guy spawn with the first name of my sister.
That was... confusing.

 

[fy00sh]

So, on topic... What do you think "Traps" and "Mutation Strength" signal about these Zombies?

"Mutation Strength" I'm hoping is some modifier like for every unit the zombies kill they have an increased chance to "mutate" a new ability, which function as the zombie unit's equivalent to promotions

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

On a serious note so that the moderators won't complain, has anyone thought about what Joao and Portugal's abilities will be to differentiate themselves from Spain? I think most obviously they will have a coastal start bias, but I don't know if they will include the Feitoria. I would like to see some sort of coastal interaction with the feitoria itself. Maybe to stimulate the fact that many feitoria/trading posts were built on various islands and peninsulas, it could be built on coastal tiles and act like an island? Maybe it is a unique district?

Portugal would synergize well with a monopolies mode

Exploration most likely. We don't have an exploration focused civ yet like Civ 5 Spain.
Trading also, specifically maritime trade, which we have a small bonus with Phoenicia.
UU as a Caravel replacement.
Feitoria is a good bet for a costal UI that could act like a fort and built next to luxuries.
And probably no religion bonuses.