What If God Was Real And Manifested Proving It?

Corruption is bad, but state sanctioned murder is not comparable.

The Saudi is after stability, they will do everything for that, I don't think that's not much difference with list of royal families that they torture in the hotel room, or a journalist that they killed. In the name of stability also Islamic State of Communist China build concentration camp for their Uyghurs population, I mean if we want to double-down with the religion card.

It's like comparing US arenas to ancient Roman ones because at both you can get trampled and killed if one is unlucky
I think it's systemic, as oppose to an exception to the rule.
 
If visiting a friend I won't intentionally disrespect them obviously.

However if they inform me if I inadvertently disrespect them they will kill me I may be less inclined to stop by for tea.
Trust me, your Iranian, Saudi, Dubai Qatari or even Afghani friend would not be like that. I understand why you perceive it like that, but it's far from what you fear.
 
I think it's systemic, as oppose to an exception to the rule
Cancer is systemic (if you live a "normal" life you will probably get cancer) but if someone purposefully tries to cause you to have cancer it's worse.

To put it more simply, bias is bad, murder is worse
 
Trust me, your Iranian, Saudi, Dubai Qatari or even Afghani friend would not be like that. I understand why you perceive it like that, but it's far from what you fear.
Not my friend but the society.

I could have friends I could trust in prison too but I still don't want to be part of that society

For the record I wouldn't have interest to goto China or North Korea either.
 
Not my friend but the society.

I could have friends I could trust in prison too but I still don't want to be part of that society

I think you should visit UAE and Iran, I think your analogy of them like being a community of ex-convict that has a different set of rule that can sank you anytime is quite wrong, if you behave yourself ofc, they are not prone to disagreement and less confrontative than say the Western peoples, but they do have clear border.
 
I don't like to have to behave myself.

I don't want to support a nation and economy that only tolerates me.

I suppose it's like if I were gay and you told me to goto a town fair in a homophobic town. Reassurance that I would be treated well nevermind my condition I don't think I'd want to come
 
I suppose it's like if I were gay and you told me to goto a town fair in a homophobic town. Reassurance that I would be treated well nevermind my condition I don't think I'd want to come
That's an assumption, if this is a fitting analogy it will be "I don't want to go to the town where they will not tolerate my tendency to speak-out about my disdain and presumption toward them uncheck, I will feel threaten and unwelcome there".

In the other hand this analogy very fits well with Muslims who migrated to a place where they are highly misunderstood and misrepresented, and receive verbal and physical harms often that resulted to death, like in Christ Church for instance.

I mean we are pretty much spend thousands of years living in a multi-religious and multi-cultural society from Aceh Sultanate till the Ottoman, while you practically still segregate black peoples in 70s, phobia against the left until end of cold-war, then Muslim, then now the Russian, I mean that's because your history from back then till now is about preaching over virtues and enforce it toward the others, this happened while in fact they lived in a monocultures and mono-ism community most of the history (hence you just can't accept an opposite different view without being confrontative about it), so you educate those savages your way-of-life and world-view, standing at the high ground and looking down at them, while your grand-grand father holding the bible and musket the preach gospel to those savages, while you are here spreading enforcing your western liberal values with bombs, economy sanction, bad media representation and war-planes, but it's still pretty much the same, the West Westplaining everybody else why they are the most right and everyone else have to follow.
 
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I think you should visit UAE and Iran, I think your analogy of them like being a community of ex-convict that has a different set of rule that can sank you anytime is quite wrong, if you behave yourself ofc, they are not prone to disagreement and less confrontative than say the Western peoples, but they do have clear border.

As someone, who visited UAE several times, lived in communist Russia, and spent a while in Egypt, I can see what you're saying. There is certain dignity in immersing yourself in foreign culture, while remaining who you are. I'm an atheist, so... seeing people walk around in high quality white robes, praying several times a day, while being absolutely glued to their iPhones put a slight confusion smile on my face more than once. But, I think there's considerable value in communicating with foreign culture. Despite the constructs, which are supposed to divide us, we should at least try conversation. Instead of blindly buying blunt tools sold to us by our respective propagandists.

The kind of mindset Lenin wrote about, when he labeled childish the attempts to "not have a conversation" with political adversary. If there's no conversation, there's no progress. Just constant demonising of each other.
 
remaining who you are.
The difference between assimilation and integration is there, you don't need to give up who you are and what you belief in order to get a decent non-hostile treatment. People are generally quite interested and curious about the West, and indeed, we still have post-colonial mentalities intact, I mean stay humble bro you are on a good tide peoples will easily in favor and overlook the antique that you are making just be humble and don't be so full of yourself you'll be charming that way. However, we can inspect pattern of behavior in Western tourism for instance In Bali, despite being welcomed, many Western tourists go full-blown crazy by walking around topless or even storming traditional ceremonies butt-naked, refusing to wear safety measures like helmets during road trips, riding motorcycle on mainstreet with bikini and underwear and refusing to stay silent during the Nyepi Festival in Bali, a day when it's forbidden for anyone to be noisy or use loud electronics outside. I'm not Balinese, but when I was there and understood their customs, I too stayed silent. But some visitors just don't get it because that's not how they conduct themselves in the West. This makes me wonder if they also walk around topless in the West. Many people, as well as the Indonesian government, mostly blame the Russians for these actions, while the person who stormed the festival was a German, and the one who refused to stay silent during Nyepi, as far as I know, was Italian, but ofc Russian is easier target.

This is pretty much what I consider a Western narcissism problem; they have a set of rules for what they consider normal and true that they carry around everywhere to measure others, and they can't keep their opinion to themselves regarding it.
 
That's an assumption, if this is a fitting analogy it will be "I don't want to go to the town where they will not tolerate my tendency to speak-out about my disdain and presumption toward them uncheck, I will feel threaten and unwelcome there".
Atheism does not necessarily equal disdain for religion let alone religious people.

Most disdain of religious people comes from other religious people.
 
And atheists know religion better than people who take it religiously?
 
The difference between assimilation and integration is there, you don't need to give up who you are and what you belief in order to get a decent non-hostile treatment.
In US socio-political discourse, you may hear the terms "melting pot" and "salad bowl." The assimilationist position is the melting pot, where the myriad ingredients blend together and become indistinguishable from one another. The integrationist model is the salad bowl, where the ingredients retain their individual form and flavor, but work together toward the whole.

People are generally quite interested and curious about the West, and indeed, we still have post-colonial mentalities intact, I mean stay humble bro you are on a good tide peoples will easily in favor and overlook the antique that you are making just be humble and don't be so full of yourself you'll be charming that way. However, we can inspect pattern of behavior in Western tourism for instance In Bali, despite being welcomed, many Western tourists go full-blown crazy by walking around topless or even storming traditional ceremonies butt-naked, refusing to wear safety measures like helmets during road trips, riding motorcycle on mainstreet with bikini and underwear and refusing to stay silent during the Nyepi Festival in Bali, a day when it's forbidden for anyone to be noisy or use loud electronics outside. I'm not Balinese, but when I was there and understood their customs, I too stayed silent. But some visitors just don't get it because that's not how they conduct themselves in the West. This makes me wonder if they also walk around topless in the West. Many people, as well as the Indonesian government, mostly blame the Russians for these actions, while the person who stormed the festival was a German, and the one who refused to stay silent during Nyepi, as far as I know, was Italian, but ofc Russian is easier target.

This is pretty much what I consider a Western narcissism problem; they have a set of rules for what they consider normal and true that they carry around everywhere to measure others, and they can't keep their opinion to themselves regarding it.
Tourists are usually self-entitled and self-absorbed twits, wherever they're from*, but I have to admit that I gained a whole new appreciation for the stereotypes about American tourists when I traveled to other countries and saw them in the flesh, with my own eyes.


* The genius who recently carved his and his girlfriend's names onto the wall of the Colosseum was Russian. And didn't the Netherlands recently say they've had it up to here with British tourists?
 
Tourists are usually self-entitled and self-absorbed twits, wherever they're from*, but I have to admit that I gained a whole new appreciation for the stereotypes about American tourists when I traveled to other countries and saw them in the flesh, with my own eyes.
Visitors behaving badly was how America came to be.
 
And atheists know religion better than people who take it religiously?
This is an endless loop of a conversation, bro. I mean, we can even easily mention how atheists purge theists in the name of progress, like for instance, in China, Cambodia, Russia, etc. In this conversation, aside from being theists and atheists, we are pretty good online acquaintances. I always maintain respect in our conversation, trying not to belittle others or be overly deterministic about my stance. However, it seems this conversation is nuanced, with the "higher ground" atheist interrogating the theist. Questions like, "What do you think about your people killing apostates, huh?" or statements like, "I think you guys are too savage; I could get killed due to a disagreement. Of course, there are good people among you, just like there are good people among criminals." Hence, we can't maintain a healthy conversation about theological discussions like God's existence without getting derailed into this interrogation mode-on. As I expected, this thread has become an arena where low theists are getting stoned and ridiculed.

I don't think Narz has a problem with me as an individual. I can relate to him in many ways – from chess, ADHD, problems growing up, etc. It's just the fact that I'm at the "wrong" group that made it like this. Having say that I think it's not a fruitful discussion.
 
He's included "studied" as a descriptor for one sample, and he's left it off of the opposing sample so the point makes a semblance of sense. But if he wants the believer to believe, but not have studied, the the sample he is looking at is clunkier... "spiritual but not religious within an existing religious framework" or something similar. If they were "taking it religiously" that's a practice, and a study. It's a lived life.

And I guess you're right, there's likely no fruit there. He's too old to crack open the window. ;)
 
The thread isn't a general discussion of religion in the first place, of course. It's about whether a god can prove they are god (a useful tangent being on whether a human could prove x is by a god and not induced by other means) - as reacting to the OP's hypothetical where they would do that ^^
 
And Buddhism should appeal. The kind we know today in the USA was a literal designed cultural export by the Meiji government for the purpose of impressing modern American sensibilities. Sort of the same but the opposite of other 19th century religions that blew up in the modern world (evangelicalism, spiritualism, Mormonism), as it had an anti-cult start rather than a cultish, breakaway start.
 
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