Barbie Movie Discussion (Spoilers)

[choxorn]

The movies also not to preachy about it leaves you to draw your own conclusions much like Dances With Wolves.

I mean it's pretty clear on which side is the good guys, and it has plenty of speeches outlining that, I'm not sure what you're meaning by "draw your own conclusions" here.

Is there an opinion on a movie and what it means that isn't subjective?

Well sure, opinions on any media or artwork or whatever are going to be subjective, but why exactly is it subjective what makes something "woke" or not, and why does it seem like even the definition of "woke" is subjective?

 

[Lexicus]

When people do give nuanced, detailed explanations, they tend to get dogpiled by insults, ad hominems, & enough strawmen (like the ones in your reply) to feed a horse for a lifetime, & so the thread gets locked.

Rob, I don't say this with the intent of insulting you, but the reason your "nuanced, detailed explanation" there gets the response it does is that it not only does not add any new insight to the conversation, it's literally just repeating the same confusions that were already directly called out by @schlaufuchs and others earlier in the thread.

I agree people should be polite, generally, but it gets incredibly wearing when you hear the same argument 20 times and each time the next person making the argument demands you respond as if you've never heard the argument before.

 

[Arwon]

Woke is when women

 

[Kaitzilla]

More like if attention is called to it when it's irrelevant to the plot at the expense of quality.

The woke debate is a question of priorities (goals) I think.

If we are really arguing about goal rankings, it is both subjective AND real.

Time and money are both limited quantities.
And the #1 goal organizes 1000 decisions.


Where do social and environmental justice goals rank vs. the goal of product quality (the #1 goal)

How far can a lesser goal get promoted before the #1 goal suffers?

If the #1 goal is suffering lately, what is the cause?

 

[Lexicus]

postwar hooker dolls

A phrase worthy of the Taliban; congratulations!

 

[EvaDK]

This definitely seems like a real thing that happens that is in no way an exaggeration in the slightest.

Sarcasm and satire... heard of those?

Meanwhile, I await whether it will be Rachel Zegler of Snow White 2024 fame, or The Witcher producer Tomek Baginski who will double down on their deeply patronizing and insulting opinions on those fans that love the source material of what they are adapting. My money is on Zegler.

 

[Gorbles]

Sarcasm and satire... heard of those?

Meanwhile, I await whether it will be Rachel Zegler of Snow White 2024 fame, or The Witcher producer Tomek Baginski who will double down on their deeply patronizing and insulting opinions on those fans that love the source material of what they are adapting. My money is on Zegler.

I mean, I've heard of sarcasm. It's what I'm used, no?

As for fans and source material, with The Witcher it's complicated. Not only are fans extrapolating massively from Cavill's departure, they're reduced to things like dunking on spelling mistakes in Tweets and the like in order to justify their exhausting attitude to "everything must match the exact details of the novels", despite the fact that that's not how adaptations work.

Never has. You always take liberties adapting for the medium. It's why stuff like Lord of the Rings worked, because Jackson understood how to make a movie out of a book. And liberties were taken!

(then there's also the racist stuff inherent in the world of the Witcher, which begs the question "do we reproduce this stuff faithfully or do we make something that isn't blatantly 'white people only', and see who gets mad")

 

[Narz]

Where do social and environmental justice goals rank vs. the goal of product quality (the #1 goal)

I've yet to see environmental justice promoted seriously in a mainstream film. Littering the world w plastic is Matell's business model.

Again I've yet to see the Barbie movie, is the uptopia an eco one where consumptive and lifestyle goals are not the priority (when I think of barbie I think of self-indulgent capitalism so I'm finding it a lil ironic that all the forum commies seem to love it)?

When it comes to mega-corporations I assume any inclusivity is just a way to increase profits (for example hijab barbie makes sense as it opens their product to a billion new clients). They could gaf about muslims as people. Inclusivity leads to profits, embracing environmentalism means they have to actually be more responsible.

 

[EvaDK]

"When a series is made for a huge mass of viewers, with different experiences, from different parts of the world, and a large part of them are Americans, these simplifications not only make sense, they are necessary. It’s painful for us, and for me too, but the higher level of nuance and complexity will have a smaller range, it won’t reach people. Sometimes it may go too far, but we have to make these decisions and accept them." - Tomek Baginski

He's basically claiming that the viewers of a show he co-produces, especially the American viewers, are unable to understand the books, hence the need to simplify and change the source material. Did you hear that gringos, he was actually doing you a favor.

 

[Kyriakos]

I thought they were adapted from the games, but they were written before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher
It's still pop fantasy books, so unlikely to be so intricate/nuanced that they would be impossible to present in a tv series without being dumbed down. Far more likely the director/tv writers themselves couldn't bother to do otherwise.

That said, sometimes fully adapting a book isn't a good idea either, because it can get tedious. The recent Chinese tv adaptation of 3bodyproblem is an example. They did invent some minor stuff, but mostly stuck to the book and with such detail that it takes tens of episodes to get anywhere. I didn't like the book that much, but was bored with the series after 20 episodes, while I'd likely have watched to the end if it had a reasonable number of episodes.

 

[Gorbles]

"When a series is made for a huge mass of viewers, with different experiences, from different parts of the world, and a large part of them are Americans, these simplifications not only make sense, they are necessary. It’s painful for us, and for me too, but the higher level of nuance and complexity will have a smaller range, it won’t reach people. Sometimes it may go too far, but we have to make these decisions and accept them." - Tomek Baginski

He's basically claiming that the viewers of a show he co-produces, especially the American viewers, are unable to understand the books, hence the need to simplify and change the source material. Did you hear that gringos, he was actually doing you a favor.

Where does he say people don't understand the books?

I literally said, there's a difference between a book and a movie, or a book and a TV show. Some things don't translate well. It's harder to follow something being acted than reading "the character thought X while smirking".

But lol @ this thread and media literacy. If you want to be smart about something, be smart. But then it's expected that the discussion matches that. And a discussion is unique to its participants, Eva, I get that. So let's talk about media literacy then! If you want?

 

[Broken_Erika]

A phrase worthy of the Taliban; congratulations!

Apparently, Barbies original design was based off Lilli, a German "Escort" doll.
http://treyspeegle.com/010113/2016/1/30/did-you-know-barbie-started-out-as-a-german-hooker
edit:removed slur.

 

[Lexicus]

"When a series is made for a huge mass of viewers, with different experiences, from different parts of the world, and a large part of them are Americans, these simplifications not only make sense, they are necessary. It’s painful for us, and for me too, but the higher level of nuance and complexity will have a smaller range, it won’t reach people. Sometimes it may go too far, but we have to make these decisions and accept them." - Tomek Baginski

He's basically claiming that the viewers of a show he co-produces, especially the American viewers, are unable to understand the books, hence the need to simplify and change the source material. Did you hear that gringos, he was actually doing you a favor.

Kind of odd given that 1) guy is from Poland, a country collectively stupid enough to frequently elect the Law and Justice Party and frequent target of xenophobia and racism, and 2) the Witcher books seem to be basically lowbrow pulp fiction (which I read quite a bit of, to be clear, but don't go around calling other people too dumb to get it) in the first place.

 

[Lexicus]

Where does he say people don't understand the books?

Right there where he says something with a high level of nuance and complexity won't reach as many people. It's funny because I also tend to think American audiences need everything spoon-fed to them, but again from what I can see the Witcher novels appear to be lowbrow pulp fiction so the whole discourse is a bit strange to me. What meat, so to speak, is there to be watered down for the dumb Americans?

 

[EvaDK]

Eva, I get that. So let's talk about media literacy then! If you want?

Considering how deep into the sewer some posters here are willing to go, I think I'll pass.

I'll leave it to you guys to have your enligheden debate on the intelligence of Polish people and the sorts.

 

[Lexicus]

Considering how deep into the sewer some posters here are willing to go, I think I'll pass.

I'll leave it to you guys to have your enligheden debate on the intelligence of Polish people and the sorts.

In the US and other "Anglo" countries it is (or was) a common racist stereotype that Polish people are dumb. Which is why it's vaguely ironic that a Polish person would be engaging in the same kind of stereotyping.

As for your attempt to portray yourself as above such discourse, ! Idk who you think you're kidding. The intelligence of American tv audiences is a valid subject of "enlightened debate" but the idiots who vote Law and Justice in Poland are off-limits?

 

[Zardnaar]

In the US and other "Anglo" countries it is (or was) a common racist stereotype that Polish people are dumb. Which is why it's vaguely ironic that a Polish person would be engaging in the same kind of stereotyping.

As for your attempt to portray yourself as above such discourse, ! Idk who you think you're kidding. The intelligence of American tv audiences is a valid subject of "enlightened debate" but the idiots who vote Law and Justice in Poland are off-limits?

American productions often get dumbed down not do much for Anerican audience but worldwide.

Dialogue heavy films and comedy for example don't translate well as explosions and gun fire.

 

[Farm Boy]

A phrase worthy of the Taliban; congratulations!

What fever dream has you reading, this time?

Denial of stone of the outcomes of broad social and economic upheaval? Some sort of judgment on those in tragedy? Judgement of those maybe not?

The Toys That Made Us did a whole episode on Barbie, it was interesting.

 

[Gorbles]

Right there where he says something with a high level of nuance and complexity won't reach as many people. It's funny because I also tend to think American audiences need everything spoon-fed to them, but again from what I can see the Witcher novels appear to be lowbrow pulp fiction so the whole discourse is a bit strange to me. What meat, so to speak, is there to be watered down for the dumb Americans?

He said the series, not the books. He spoke from the perspective of the series and what they feel they're able to portray

Jury's out on whether this is a good thing or not, but the whole drama about the show started when they cast a non-white actress to play a "white" role. That's the context.

Considering how deep into the sewer some posters here are willing to go, I think I'll pass.

I'll leave it to you guys to have your enligheden debate on the intelligence of Polish people and the sorts.

Nobody said anything about the intelligence of Polish people. Kinda funny for you to make a high horse comment about sewers and then misrepresent folks that strongly

 

[Lexicus]

Nobody said anything about the intelligence of Polish people. Kinda funny for you to make a high horse comment about sewers and then misrepresent folks that strongly

I did, I said the country was collectively stupid enough to repeatedly vote Law and Justice, but I've said the same exact thing about any other country dumb enough to elect conservatives (yes including the US) so