SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle · Apr 9, 2007

Erkon said:
Turfan captured (and kept, no buildings), no units lost, Zhukov (GG) born

Excellent. You know, I was thinking, if you raze Samarqand, G might settle there or to the NE near that gold. That would be good.

Erkon · Apr 9, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Excellent. You know, I was thinking, if you raze Samarqand, G might settle there or to the NE near that gold. That would be good.

Samarqand will fall in two turns, music will be done in three. The first galleon with units is on the way to Isabella, where we can offload them (or station the galleon next to Brennus lands).

Erkon · Apr 9, 2007

Turnset report (680AD - 830AD = 10 turns)

Razed Tabriz, Tiflis, Karakorum, Polynesian.
Captured Turfan, Hing-Sia, Samarqand
Lost one unit
Popped one great general (7 turns to great person in Murky Waters)
Killed ships (one Galleon is now Nav II)
Whipped settler => located on Brown Spot
Upgraded lots of units to berserkers (and one pikeman)
Filled three galleons with units, one offloaded on Isabella turf
Evacuated GC (Galley two turns away - drumroll)
Traded for Theology. Gandhi, GK and Hannibal has Optics.

Spoiler :

Gnejs · Apr 9, 2007

Nice turnset Erkon.

And, "got it".

LowtherCastle · Apr 9, 2007

Erkon said:
Turnset report (680AD - 830AD = 10 turns)

Razed Tabriz, Tiflis, Karakorum, Polynesian.
Captured Turfan, Hing-Sia, Samarqand
Lost one unit
Popped one great general (7 turns to great person in Murky Waters)
Killed ships (one Galleon is now Nav II)
Whipped settler => located on Brown Spot
Upgraded lots of units to berserkers (and one pikeman)
Filled three galleons with units, one offloaded on Isabella turf
Evacuated GC (Galley two turns away - drumroll)
Traded for Theology. Gandhi, GK and Hannibal has Optics.

Now that's a TURNSET!!!

About time someone decided to start playing... :goodjob:

LowtherCastle · Apr 9, 2007

Everything looks good!!! I would crank out 3 more galleons asap. With a minimum of 6 on the E coast, we can galley-hop 3 units/turn. Otherwise, we transport at a snail's pace.

Erkon · Apr 10, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Everything looks good!!! I would crank out 3 more galleons asap. With a minimum of 6 on the E coast, we can galley-hop 3 units/turn. Otherwise, we transport at a snail's pace.

We have four-five galleon loads of units left to ship. When BC is up and running, we'll build about one unit/turn. I put one turn into CF's settler, since there is no good candidate for the settler elsewhere (I think we have whipped enough for a while). And we need more trebs, that's why I set MW to build another.

When we start messing with Brennus, we will tie up two galleons there. We then have two left between the continents. Perhaps we need more, although I'm not convinced :confused:

LowtherCastle · Apr 10, 2007

Erkon said:
We have four-five galleon loads of units left to ship. When BC is up and running, we'll build about one unit/turn. I put one turn into CF's settler, since there is no good candidate for the settler elsewhere (I think we have whipped enough for a while). And we need more trebs, that's why I set MW to build another.

When we start messing with Brennus, we will tie up two galleons there. We then have two left between the continents. Perhaps we need more, although I'm not convinced

I think we should leave one on the W coast, just in case...

I guess what you're saying is that 9 turns from now, we'll have transported 6 galleon loads over there and after that each galleon transports 3 every 6 turns, so 2 galleons = 1 unit/t.

Makes sense to me.

I was thinking in terms of 1) getting our 1st wave over there asap and 2) being able to ship 3 units over on a moment's notice. That's how I run naval warfare: 880ad and I transport 3 battalians from NYC to Peking in 1 turn.

Anyway, Gnejs doesn't have my cell number, so I don't have to worry about the consequences of him having another peaceful turnset... :lol:

Big Pig · Apr 10, 2007

Great warmongering from LC and Erkon in the last 2 turnsets. We are cooking with gas now....

LowtherCastle said:
Anyway, Gnejs doesn't have my cell number, so I don't have to worry about the consequences of him having another peaceful turnset...

That's ok - I think Gnejs needs to get in touch with his inner builder....

Regarding galleons and the war with Brennus, I think we need to agree where and on how many fronts we want to attack. The units deposited in Isa land will be great for a southern front pushing up into the soft underbelly of Brennus-land. But remember that any cities we capture there may be overwhelmed by Isa's culture. I think we want at least 1 front directly attacking Bibracte, which is by far and away Brennus's most valuable city. This will need at least 4 (and preferably 5) galleon loads of troops all ready to unload next door to Bibracte on turn 0

Gnejs · Apr 10, 2007

Big Pig said:
Great warmongering from LC and Erkon in the last 2 turnsets. We are cooking with gas now....
That's ok - I think Gnejs needs to get in touch with his inner builder....

Regarding galleons and the war with Brennus, I think we need to agree where and on how many fronts we want to attack. The units deposited in Isa land will be great for a southern front pushing up into the soft underbelly of Brennus-land. But remember that any cities we capture there may be overwhelmed by Isa's culture. I think we want at least 1 front directly attacking Bibracte, which is by far and away Brennus's most valuable city. This will need at least 4 (and preferably 5) galleon loads of troops all ready to unload next door to Bibracte on turn 0

It looks like Erkon has done an excellent job this time! :goodjob:

I don't really see any big decisions to make during my first turns as everything is set up nicely and the build-up for an attack on Brennus is on track. And since I am not going to be content with just moving troops that attack is definitely going to happen during my turnset...

But, for completeness, here are my plans:
Cease-fire with GK and gift him Engineering.
Build troops, move troops to Brennus and attack.
Settle SW island.
Settle Brown City.
Leave GC to Gandhi.
Restore order and expand culture in Mongolia.
Research to 0% after Music - we do not need any tech in a hurry, and we can use the funds for deficit research later.
Switch to Organized Religion and start spreading Hinduism to cities on starting continent and Judaism to cities on Brennus' continent.

Opinions? Ok if I play already tonight?

I would also have preferred to drop our troops on Bibcrate instead of down south. But I think Erkon wanted to deny Brennus the ivory from the start. And, he claimed on the phone that Madrids culture wouldn't reach that far. I need to check the save but he may be right. :eek:

Anyway, it must be better to attack with 10 units now rather than wait 20(?) turns until we have everything in place for landing a SoD at Bibcrate. By an early war we have time to deplete Brennus' mobile units and also to maximize our tech advantage: maces vs. gallic warriors.
We want to get rid of as many GWs as possible before B can upgrade them to maces.

Big Pig · Apr 10, 2007

Gnejs said:
Cease-fire with GK and gift him Engineering. No!! Gandhi already has Engineering I think

Anyway, it must be better to attack with 10 units now rather than wait 20(?) turns until we have everything in place for landing a SoD at Bibcrate. By an early war we have time to deplete Brennus' mobile units and also to maximize our tech advantage: maces vs. gallic warriors.
We want to get rid of as many GWs as possible before B can upgrade them to maces.

Hmmm - will it take 20 turns to get an 4-5 galleon SOD to Bibracte? We only need 1-2 more galleons and a few more trebs. If we attack from the S first, then Brennus may move his mobile troops to counter - but he may also start increasing the defences in his capital

LowtherCastle · Apr 10, 2007

Gnejs said:
And since I am not going to be content with just moving troops that attack is definitely going to happen during my turnset...
NO WAY! You WILL be peaceful...

But, for completeness, here are my plans:
Cease-fire with GK and gift him Engineering. G does have Engineering, as BP pointed out.
Switch to Organized Religion and start spreading Hinduism to cities on starting continent and Judaism to cities on Brennus' continent. Coordinate this with your attack plans, ie., don't screw yourself up with a revolting downtime...

Opinions? Ok if I play already tonight? Only if you promise to PEACEMONGER.

I would also have preferred to drop our troops on Bibcrate instead of down south. But I think Erkon wanted to deny Brennus the ivory from the start. And, he claimed on the phone that Madrids culture wouldn't reach that far. Santiago will pressure the borders but not threaten the city, I don't think.
Anyway, it must be better to attack with 10 units now rather than wait 20(?) turns until we have everything in place for landing a SoD at Bibcrate. By an early war we have time to deplete Brennus' mobile units and also to maximize our tech advantage: maces vs. gallic warriors.
We want to get rid of as many GWs as possible before B can upgrade them to maces.

Big Pig said:
Hmmm - will it take 20 turns to get an 4-5 galleon SOD to Bibracte? We only need 1-2 more galleons and a few more trebs. If we attack from the S first, then Brennus may move his mobile troops to counter - but he may also start increasing the defences in his capital

Two issues:

1a. You could poprush galleons in CF and MC on T3 (CF would require 3 wkrs chopping the NW, NW forest. You would have to start the chop before settling BC and I'm not sure if it would stay allocated to CF...you could wait on BC or I could test it, but not till tonight). Your biggest problem would be filling those galleons, but I think you could scrounge something up.

1b. Alternatively, you could build a 3rd galleon in MW and have 6 galleons full and ready to swoop on Bibracte on T10-11 or so. (Can we stop you from playing more than 10 turns??? :lol:

) You are going to need about 10 turns to get cats/trebs in place to destroy city defenses, in any case. Attacking before that will needlessly cause more recovery time for our units, right?

2. Which Brennus cities do we want to keep, which to raze? Let's talk.

Taking Karakorum first, then going after the rest of GK worked really well. Bibracte is similarly on a hill. I vote for 1b), attacking Bibracte first, on T11-12, and I propose 2 solutions to your WTs (warmongrium tremens): 1) Play till you've captured Bibracte; or 2) I'll swap my next turnset in here and "transport units" for the next 10 turns...

Gnejs · Apr 10, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Two issues:

1a. You could poprush galleons in CF and MC on T3 (CF would require 3 wkrs chopping the NW, NW forest. You would have to start the chop before settling BC and I'm not sure if it would stay allocated to CF...you could wait on BC or I could test it, but not till tonight). Your biggest problem would be filling those galleons, but I think you could scrounge something up.

1b. Alternatively, you could build a 3rd galleon in MW and have 6 galleons full and ready to swoop on Bibracte on T10-11 or so. (Can we stop you from playing more than 10 turns??? ) You are going to need about 10 turns to get cats/trebs in place to destroy city defenses, in any case. Attacking before that will needlessly cause more recovery time for our units, right?

2. Which Brennus cities do we want to keep, which to raze? Let's talk.
Taking Karakorum first, then going after the rest of GK worked really well. Bibracte is similarly on a hill. I vote for 1b), attacking Bibracte first, on T11-12, and I propose 2 solutions to your WTs (warmongrium tremens): 1) Play till you've captured Bibracte; or 2) I'll swap my next turnset in here and "transport units" for the next 10 turns...

OK, I will gift GK Astronomy instead...

... no, I probably won't yet. Hmm, what techs do GK and Gandhi have on each other? It is bad to gift Astro if Gandhi can't trade for it, but it is good if Gandhi is already researching it since he gets the discount then.

Need to look at the save before posting something intelligent on the war plan discussion. But from what I remember there wasn't much defense in several of the costal cities. Perhaps we could even used berserkers directly in true amphibious attacks, without even bothering to bring down defenses.

Erkon · Apr 10, 2007

Gnejs - I expect you to capture at least three Brennus-cities within the next ten turns, else you're a pathetic peace-monger...

There's nothing to wait for. DOW the turn after the next turn and amphibious-capture Camulodunum (don't forget to move in the galleon and offload). Brennus is already building units, so that won't change with a DOW. Move the scout on turn 0 towards Madrid and check the culture, but I am convinced that it's not 80% (that requires 7500 culture points and take a look at the victory condition screen if you are still hesitating). The Ivory will be ours after we capture Camulodunum. If you move the berserker-treb-cat stack on the Incense, you can move them after the capture of Cam.

Tolosa is a high production city, we need to take it out asap. Gergovia is also producing a lot. MC can whip a galleon if we really need one more. Keep in mind that CF will loose the sheep to BC.

We want to kill of Brennus' mobile units. He won't upgrade to mace (does not have tech).

It's good to attack Brennus from two sides. He will be very confused :lol:

One more thing:

Kill'em all! :aargh:

Erkon · Apr 10, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
2. Which Brennus cities do we want to keep, which to raze? Let's talk.

Raze Bagacum, Durocortorum, Isca. Keep the rest.

The caravel to the west is on the way to spy on Brennus coastal cities.

Erkon · Apr 10, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
I think we should leave one on the W coast, just in case... I think we should be prepared to abandon all cities on the Gandhi-continent asap.

I guess what you're saying is that 9 turns from now, we'll have transported 6 galleon loads over there and after that each galleon transports 3 every 6 turns, so 2 galleons = 1 unit/t.

Makes sense to me.

I was thinking in terms of 1) getting our 1st wave over there asap and 2) being able to ship 3 units over on a moment's notice. That's how I run naval warfare: 880ad and I transport 3 battalians from NYC to Peking in 1 turn.

Anyway, Gnejs doesn't have my cell number, so I don't have to worry about the consequences of him having another peaceful turnset...

The Galleon moving to Hing-sia will pick up the three units there (upgrade axe and leave empty). If we whip a Galleon in MC, that one can pickup the treb from MW, the berserker next to Otrar, and the healer-axe from OS.

The other units can board the galleons coming from Brennus in six turns.

Erkon · Apr 10, 2007

Big Pig said:
Great warmongering from LC and Erkon in the last 2 turnsets. We are cooking with gas now....
That's ok - I think Gnejs needs to get in touch with his inner builder....

Regarding galleons and the war with Brennus, I think we need to agree where and on how many fronts we want to attack. The units deposited in Isa land will be great for a southern front pushing up into the soft underbelly of Brennus-land. But remember that any cities we capture there may be overwhelmed by Isa's culture. I think we want at least 1 front directly attacking Bibracte, which is by far and away Brennus's most valuable city. This will need at least 4 (and preferably 5) galleon loads of troops all ready to unload next door to Bibracte on turn 0

Bibracte has only ten hammers, while Gergovia has 14. Vienne has Heroic Epic and more than ten hammers. Tolosa has >10 hammers as well. Bibracte is very important for his research and has National Epic + shrine. Even if it is his most valuable city, I doubt it is his most important city when the war is started. IMHO

Big Pig · Apr 10, 2007

Erkon said:
Bibracte has only ten hammers, while Gergovia has 14. Vienne has Heroic Epic and more than ten hammers. Tolosa has >10 hammers as well. Bibracte is very important for his research and has National Epic + shrine. Even if it is his most valuable city, I doubt it is his most important city when the war is started. IMHO

Don't forget Brennus is running slavery - which makes Bibracte potentially a high prod city. And owning Bibracte will give a bigger boost to our finances because of the Hindu shrine. But I take your point that Vienne, Tolosa etc are big production centres.

Of course if Gnejs was a real warmonger, he would DOW on Isa at the same time and capture Madrid and Santiago whilst they are still defended by archers....... :devil:

Big Pig · Apr 10, 2007

The 2 medic axemen (in Turfan and OS) should probably be shipped over (+/- upgraded) to join in the fun. Chariots from MW (3 turns) (or explorers - 4 turns) would be a cheap source of further medics

Erkon · Apr 10, 2007

Big Pig said:
Don't forget Brennus is running slavery - which makes Bibracte potentially a high prod city.

I forgot the slavery option.

Big Pig said:
The 2 medic axemen (in Turfan and OS) should probably be shipped over (+/- upgraded) to join in the fun. Chariots from MW (3 turns) (or explorers - 4 turns) would be a cheap source of further medics

How about attaching the great general to a medic-unit?

SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

bringing home the bacon

Deity

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