Byzantines: Great Civilization, or the Greatest Civilization?

[SenhorDaGuerra]

imperialistic is a very underrated trait. more GG's lead to more highly promoted units off the bat. for example i once had 11 GG's settled in my military city. coupled with west point, and theocracy/vassalage made some seriously powerfull units every turn. my army was essentially unstoppable and i didnt even have to knock cultural defenses down to attack cities.

that said i have never played with justinian. although his music is by far the best in the game. so epic.

my favorite leader at the moment, though, is zara yaqob. Oromo worriors are just simply the most amazing UU around.

 

[Cytral]

mine is Ragnar

just because you can go berserk

 

[Johan^^]

Defnitely not the greatest civ.!

I.e. look at the Romans.

Need i say more.


They are pretty low on my fav. list of civs. Maybe because i like to do WE/SE economy at first, then through in some cottages later.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree with everything said here. This models my own opinion so much its scary. I don't have a "greatest civ" opinion but I am really liking the Byzantines. Imperialistic is a trait that IMO is more useful for warmongers than aggressive is.

In my current game I already have 6 GGs and have been at peace for about 50 turns. Its at 1400ad right now. With at least 2 more wars in store. Although I took over the great wall so I get 2 GG points for every xp point gained outside my turf, and 3 points for every xp gained in my turf.
Also, I am a big fan of Spiritual. As for the starting techs, I wouldn't mind switching the wheel with either agriculture or mining personally.

But when playing the Byzantines, going for guilds ASAP will result in more victories, thus more GGs, thus more victories, etc. There are times I will skip CS to get guilds faster then backfill CS. "What's that? you got Str 8 maces?... Cool. I got str 12 knights. You lose."

I agree, strength 12 knights before anyone has pikes is a serious advantage.

 

[kniteowl]

You don't need to beeline to Guilds for UU, you should have a barracks and Stables for a combat 2 UU which would give you a 14.4 str UU.

Only a Formation Pike could counter it and if your neither Agg or Cha, then those veteran units will be difficult to produce.

and only a well Promoted Longbow on a hill (assuming zero cultural Defense) could defend effectively

eg - Fortified LB with CG3 (6*2.25) = 13.5 str (assuming zero cultural defense and not on a hill)

I generally end up having economic problems when I attempt a beeline and even if I do they take too long to build as Knights are relatively expensive to build, note I'm beelining using Great People by light bulb where I have to delay techs like Maths. The best way for me is to basically research normally build up a huge treasury by GMs on trade missions and mass upgrade my horse archers.

 

[bonafide11]

Spiritual/Imperialistic falls probably around the worst combo on a leader... Even if he was Justinian of Rome he'd still suck. And I hardly consider Mysticism a great starting tech: it doesn't matter if you have it on higher difficulties, the AI is still gonna fund all the early religions anyway. You'd be better off just CoL slinging Confucianism.

No way, it's a great trait combo. I agree the starting techs are lackluster, but Justinian is quite powerful

 

[King Flevance]

I generally tech normally. Can't pass up catapults. But after I get catapults, I either trade for metal casting, or start in on the expensive tech line. Metal Casting gives forges so I make sure any military city gets them ASAP. Then you gain access to crossbows (machinery) for a counter against the maces that will soon be flooding the map. Then grab guilds. Of course, you have to pick where you are going to throw Feudalism into all that. But I aim for feudalism pretty early too. If I can, I try and Oracle it.
On my current marathon game I have Cataphracts popping out in 4 turns in my main military city and others are popping them out in 5-7 turns.

If you do a sword/cat rush early, you will spawn at least a couple GGs. Settle them in a city and if you also use vassalage when you first get guilds. (Spiritual so the switch is instananeous) Then you should have units popping out of 1 city with 11 xp. I usually go Flanking I & II and then throw in a Combat I. SO you have 13.2 knights. If you are still worried about pikes throw on shock once you get to 17 xp. That gives them a pretty good chance being a 16.2 vs. 12. (provided no outside bonuses). It takes a while before you get to have them pop out with 17+ xp though. In my current game they are coming out with 17 on the nose due to vassalage. I attached my last GG I got onto one and am about to run an army of about 15-20 more Cataphracts into India.

Running Str promos isnt bad for strong knight vs. knight. But Flanking helps take out the archers, and shock does decent at holding off the pikes.

 

[Dnomal]

Byzantium is my favourite civ historically.

IN civ however it's not, the trait combo is actually amzaingly good if you actually play it in the right circumstance. The Great Generals help to build academies and train armies with high XP, while with Spiritual you can easily change without anarchy, (which as a Marathon player is FANTASTIC).

Plus, by beelining to Guilds from the start and with the help of the Oracle you can be launching your Cataphracts against entrenched Arcers (happened on my first Justinian game, Monarch), so i wouldn't underestimate them.

The hippodrome means you can fight easily, without worrying about WW, and the cata being so powerfull means you don't really neded to worry. Not even pikeman can effictevly attack them, since with barracks and stable you can get strength 1 and the melee attack promo.

Overall the Byzantines are underated, although their presentation in Civ is grossly inaccurate, since Justinian is more famous for his building than his spirituality, IMO Augustus's traits, or Bismark's traits would be better suited.

 

[IhatehateBtS]

I gott say I started a civ as a 'random' civ and got the Byzantines..WOW. To be fair I got stone AND marble with my first two cities...but its now 1730 and I'm researcing Assembly line...I have two vassals.....muwahahahah


That is, of course, when BtS decides NOT to crash after a turn or two...this is still THE most crash prone game I've ever ever played

 

[Johan^^]

I gott say I started a civ as a 'random' civ and got the Byzantines..WOW. To be fair I got stone AND marble with my first two cities...but its now 1730 and I'm researcing Assembly line...I have two vassals.....muwahahahah


That is, of course, when BtS decides NOT to crash after a turn or two...this is still THE most crash prone game I've ever ever played

Never had a crash while playing it !

Only had two crashes on loading a game ..that´s all. `Think it pretty good

 

[Florian]

Overall the Byzantines are underated, although their presentation in Civ is grossly inaccurate, since Justinian is more famous for his building than his spirituality

Justinian is famous for the Hagia Sophia, but Spiritual still makes a lot of sense because of his intense interest in (and contributions to) theology, and because the Hagia Sophia (like many of his other buildings) is a cathedral. As for Imperialistic, it's the best possible trait to give him, considering his preoccupation with re-conquering the western half of the empire, and his codification of Roman Law.

The way the hippodrome helps you wage war almost incessantly is also accurate, considering how long Justinian's armies were on campaign in Italy.

As for the Byzantines in Civ 4, I like 'em, and the AI does well with them too, but they're certainly not the strongest, or even close. Their music IS the coolest thing I've heard in a computer game, though.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

The Hippodrome makes Justinian work. If you want to get the most out of Imperialistic, you need to fight. A lot. What happens when you fight a lot? War weariness. Hippodrome CRUSHES that problem. One happy face for horses, one happy face for every 5% (not 10 or 20%). My last game with him I was in constant war but rarely fell behind in tech because of the hippodrome. I raised my culture to 30% at my war weariest and it wasnt a problem. Plus the Cataphracts means you wont need a new unit to fight with until riflemen...thats a long time.

I think Justinian is one of the best leaders in the game.

 

[CHEESE!]

I'm happy to get Taoism or Islam later. No way I could conceive of getting all the religions.

6) Justinian has very cool music.

AGREED....better than late Portugal in my opinion.

And yes, Justin rocks. Marathon is best 4 the Spi trait

 

[MrCynical]

Hmm, there are many worse leaders than Justinian, but the greatest? He's not even in the top 10. I'm not even sure I'd put him in the top half.

Traits: Spiritual is a solid trait at any level. Unfortunately Imperialistic is probably the worst trait in the game - only protective and maybe expansive give it a run for last place. The boost to settler production is bugged so it only affects hammers, not food, which largely negates it on most maps. The great general boost, while nice, doesn't make up for the total lack of other benefits from this trait. You might average one more promotion on each new unit in the later stages of the game if you really work at it.

The UB isn't bad at the higher levels. The UU is nothing to write home about, though is useful for dealing with enemy SoDs, which tend to be largely free of archery units anyway.

Starting techs; there's worse combos that Wheel/Mysticism. Mysticism isn't so good at high levels though, and the immediate religion beeline is overrated anyway. The lack of either mining or agriculture makes this a fairly mediocre combination.

Overall I'd probably put Justinian in tier 3 of 4. All the Financial civs, Philosophical civs, the Romans, and Boudica have far greater claim to the Greatest Civilization title.

 

[MrFelony]

Imperialistic sucks? have you never waged war? do you not know how nice it is to have level 2 troops out the bat from an early GG? Imperialistic is a pretty decent trait. if you wage enough war, with 3 settled GGs, barracks, and stable you're cataphracts are coming out with 11 xp.

also, if the byzantines are your favorite civ, why're you name huayna capac

 

[Pangur Bán]

Besides being an invented civilization, the medieval Romans are pretty good depending on your strategy. I'm a big fan of the UU, though I don't rate Imperialistic as much as I do Charismatic. Justinian should have the organized trait; of all the Roman emperors he is one of the greatest legal reformers, and his Latin law codes were the basis for are what Roman law as we call it is based on. His most historical traits would be Organized and Industrious!

I tend to play Peter and Brennus more than any other leaders combined, though Sitting Bull is becoming a strong favorite of mine too. The protective trait really isn't as bad as some people in this thread make it out; if you play it right, one might even argue the trait is overpowered.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

If you're fighting a lot, you don't need Imperialistic to get those generals.

Notice that the topic creator joined CFC before BtS was released, in other words before Justinian even existed. He had to have had a different favorite leader at that time. Guess who it was...

 

[IhatehateBtS]

Well I jus tfinished my first game as Justinian.....

Won on Noble (still getting used to BtS, so I thought I'd play it safe) Domination Victory in 1925

Normalized Score: 34,642!

 

[lutzj]

I don't quite understand why justin is imperial. Financial, organized, protective... all of those would be much better and more realistic traits for him IMO.

 

[King Flevance]

I usually will only settle 6 GG max as specialists in cities anymore.That allows all units that the city makes to gain 4 promotions with a barracks and either Vassalage, or Theocracy running. 7 GG specialists max if you don't plan on using either of those. Then cavalry will be +2 xp up on them.

Although I am thinking of reducing those number by 1. So cavalry will come out at lvl 5 and anything else will come out only needing 2 xp for level 5.

I use to stack all my GG's but it works out better if you just aim to be able to gain 3-4 promotions in a city, and then work on getting that in another city as well.