RBTS6 - Finally Ready for Noble!

[Compromise]

Zeviz has asked some good questions. I'd like a chance to think a bit about how to proceed before the next turnset or two.

If it's easier for Zeviz to play his turns sooner rather than later, then maybe he can set science to 0% after Pottery, thus not really committing to the next tech. And switch every city except the GemPyramids city--will that be Chaco?--to a Granary which should probably be whipped asap.

Specifically, I'd like to consider tech order (both short-term--given our current hut-cash surplus and long-term: funded at breakeven science rate), our wonder priorities (ToA is often prioritized by the BtS AI, but it would probably 3-5gpt *per city* to our budget), our expansion priorities (dotmap), and our defense needs (will the AI attack given that they're likely to get Hinduism at some point.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Lurker's comment: ToA's benefits are confined to the city that builds it.

 

[Compromise]

I ran a couple quick test games out to 1000AD where I just settled the starting settler, put the warrior in it and built settlers (which I deleted).

The starting warrior on a flatland held off all barb comers--warriors and archers--until a barb sword showed up in 940AD.

I never got attacked by an AI even though I refused all offers including open borders and invitations to stop trade, etc.

It looks like the noble AI wonders break down roughly (ones we might want in bold):
~2000BC: Stonehenge
~800-1200BC: Great Wall and Temple of Artemis
~600BC: Oracle
~10AD: Pyramids
~300-600AD: Great Lighthouse
~400-800AD: Hanging Gardens; maybe Mausolleum or Statue of Zeus
~1100AD: Great Library
also: no civ had even started The Colossus in 1000AD.

Based on this, I now have some opinions on some of Zeviz's points.

First, I'm no longer worried about defense. Instead of diverting to Archery, I'd rather get Ironworking(10T compared to Hunting+Archery's 6-7T) and find some Iron to settle on: preferably coastal now that we have the Lighthouse.

Second, I doubt we'll be able to land the Oracle or ToA. I think those would've required settling the marble instead of Yellow Dot and a deforestation of our capital.

Third, for tech I think I'd prefer to prioritize Ironworking a bit. I think we'll eventually want some metal, if only for spears in the unlikely event of an AI horse invasion. Also, I'd like to clear out some jungle in the hopes that maybe some forests will spread for us. And if it turns out there's no hope of getting connectable Iron, then we probably will want archery

Fourth, we probably need to start thinking about health limits. We can build aqueducts now. Maybe we should be doing that instead of a library in Povery Point?

Fifth, I think we should plan our forest chops carefully. Probably a map would help. We need what...6 chops for the Pyramids?

Sixth, I'd like to think about how to build the Moai Statues. If we 2-pop whip a granary from 44/90H, we'll get 44H in overflow which will be doubled by our stone. (If we let the granary get to 45/90H, we'll only be able to 1-pop whip it. I.e., unmodified forest chops are 44H, whipped pop points are 45H.) I think some combination of whippable builds swapping with direct building is probably going to be the most efficient way of building the Statues.

That's all I can think of right now...too tired. I'll try to flesh out the fifth and sixth points tomorrow if I can find some time. Maybe this is enough to go on for the next turnset though.

Edit: Thanks Swiss. Given that, ToA no longer seems very appealing to me for this game.

 

[Zeviz]

I was going to run a quick test game, but Compromise is way ahead on this.

The one test that I did do, showed that ToA works on local trade routes, as well as foreign ones, but (there's always a "but") it applies only to a city in which it's built. It does provide a free Priest, so it would pay for its construction cost in 200 turns. However, we are probably too late for it.

I remembered another point about defense. I lost to Khan around 500BC in a recent adventure set on Prince, so even low level AIs do make an early rush sometimes. However, in that game Khan had an amazingly productive capital, and had over half a dozen attacking units by 1000BC. (Even in that case he hadn't declared on me, but I declared on him.) So we are probably safe at least until BC/AD split. (If you are wondering how I lost, I didn't expect that kind of resistance from Prince AI, and was playing after midnight, so I wasn't thinking very well.)

I agree that we can detour to IW and then proceed to Metal Casting if Iron is found. When we are done exploring, we should send a warrior to keep constant watch on Jao's military buildup. This will tell us whether we need to research Archery ASAP.

On building priorities, I agree with Granaries, but I don't think we'll need to worry about health, because the whip will be our primary method of production in most cities, so they will never get a chance to grow into unhealthiness. Even without whipping, I'd almost never put Aqueduct ahead of Library, because +25% science is usually better than +2 food.

So here is what I think the new plan is. (I am obviously not going to play until tomorrow evening.)

Mound City (max food after lighthouse) - Lighthouse -> Granary (whip at 44H) -> Moai Statues (perhaps interrupted by whipping Library in similar way to Granary)

Poverty Point (max food?) - Granary (whip when possible) -> Library -> ?

Gem City (max food?) - Pyramids

Capital (max food) - whip Settler -> Granary -> Barracks -> Warrior + Settler (putting in Library if city needs time to regrow before whipping next settler)

Technology: Pottery -> IW (metal + clear jungle) -> Metal Casting (forges for production + Colossus) -> Aestetics -> Literature (Great Library for research and tons of scientists to settle somewhere)

Is that right? Did I miss anything?

 

[Compromise]

I think that looks good, Zeviz. I may want to think a bit more to see if it's better to get the granary up asap at Mound City or get to 4 pop and whip it with the overflow. Once we have the granary, each coastal tile is effectively 3F2C.

One other question: what do we want our first GP to be? We could probably grab a priest by detouring to Priesthood, whipping a temple and running a priest; or an Engineer from the Pyramids; or a Scientist by getting a library up quickly and running some scientists. Or a coin flip by getting a specialist up in the GemPyramid city.

Edit: Also, for the record, I think Joao like Hereditary Rule and Wang likes Caste System.

 

[JackRules]

lurker comment:

Since I only win occasionally on Noble as it is, I will be very interested, and properly amazed, to see you guys win with no tile improvements. Just don't underestimate the Noble AI; they do attack without notice and they do bring decent numbers. Probably not before the end of the expansion phase, however. Good luck!

 

[darrelljs]

Wow, lots of good discussion...this is a pretty dedicated team . Nice job on the micro Compromise, phase A complete!

I deleted the Totem Pole from the queue in Mound City so it wouldn't accidentally get built. When the lighthouse there completes, I recommend growing it by working coastal tiles.

I think whip overflow is the best way to build Maoi Statues, so we might want to put this back in the queue eventually (it is a good UB for us). First we should do a Granary and then probably a Library.

Note: I'm pretty sure that in BtS, a forest that's within the borders of two cities will send its chop-hammers to the city that is actively controlling the square. So, when we chop for the Pyramids, make sure that any forest that's shared by Mound City or Cahokia is being controlled by the gem city.

This is definitely true.

At size 4, Poverty Point is unhealthy! Maybe we should trade for a health resource? Maybe not.

Hmm...that is surprising to me. This is Noble, the cap should be pretty high. There are no Floodplains and only one Jungle tile. Oh well...I guess we are going to have major trouble with this later, I agree we should be selective on the forest chops. One thought would be to whip out an Aqueduct and go for Stone accelerated Hanging Gardens in Poverty Point, or maybe in Mound City where we have more forests. That is +1 health in addition to the +1 population, and more importantly yummy GE points. I actually like the though of a GM, since we can use 'em to balance odd food cities and run an extra Scientist specialist, but GEs are still better becauise of our Hammer shortage.

I set Poverty Point on a Library to help push back Joao's borders, but that could be changed. Probably better to switch it to a granary in a couple of turns when Pottery comes in. Then back to the library or troops?

I would suggest Granary, then Library.

After whipping the Settler, Cahokia can either build a granary (might delay whip until after Pottery is in to send overflow to it) or finish its barracks.

I would hold off on the whip, and make sure the overflow goes to the Granary.

Mound City: After lighthouse, start on granary or Moai? Maybe build Moai, then at size 4, whip a granary for max overflow into Moai?

Exactly .

Pottery in a couple turns, then what? Metalcasting for Colossus (presumably in Mound City where it and the required forge will take forever)? Or head toward Aesthetics->Literature to try for the Great Library? I'd let one of the AIs on our continent get to Alphabet first.

Currency can wait, we don't seem to have enough cities yet to take advantage of the tech properly. We need Marble city before starting the GL, and I was always thinking the Colossus would go at Deer dot (we need the forests, without Copper). Mound City will be busy building Maoi Statues for now. I'd say we go for Priesthood for a Temple and some Prophet points. After that, the order for Metalcasting, Literature, and Currency->Code of Laws will hopefully become clearer.

Also, how long will Moai Statues take in Mound City? What about Colossus and Forge built naturally after Moai Statues?

That feels like it would take forever and a day, I would rather chop it out at Deer dot and let Mound City focus on military (after getting the requisite buildings in place.

It looks like the noble AI wonders break down roughly (ones we might want in bold):
~2000BC: Stonehenge
~800-1200BC: Great Wall and Temple of Artemis
~600BC: Oracle
~10AD: Pyramids
~300-600AD: Great Lighthouse
~400-800AD: Hanging Gardens; maybe Mausolleum or Statue of Zeus
~1100AD: Great Library
also: no civ had even started The Colossus in 1000AD.

Fantastic work here, I would not bank on those dates but it certainly can help us prioritize !

Second, I doubt we'll be able to land the Oracle or ToA. I think those would've required settling the marble instead of Yellow Dot and a deforestation of our capital.

ToA is attractive from the point of the free Priest specialist as well (especially under Representation). However, given your analysis we shouldn't bother trying. I think after the Pyramids that the HG is the next wonder we should focus on, with Colossus at Deer dot nearly in parallel. I think we can get the Great Library in Mound City after Maoi comes in, which will let us delay useless Marble city for a while. We need Libraries before we can start that Wonder, don't forget.

Third, for tech I think I'd prefer to prioritize Ironworking a bit/

Hmm...I think you were right earlier when you said, essentially, screw military for now. Joao does favor military, but he has a peace weight of 6 which is fairly high. His "aggression level" is medium, which is the same as Asoka. Actually, he matches Bismark almost exactly. He is also 100% guaranteed not to declare war at Pleased relations. We are better off getting a Missionary to him than working on units. Wang Kon has a peace weight of 8 but is more aggressive. He doesn't have a military focus though, and again is 100% guaranteed not to declare war at Pleased. So, screw military beyond garrison is my suggestion.

Fifth, I think we should plan our forest chops carefully. Probably a map would help. We need what...6 chops for the Pyramids?

A forest chop map would be awesome. Mark them for Colossus, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens and the Great Library. I probably won't have time to do one today though, hopefully someone else can take a stab at it .

I agree that we can detour to IW and then proceed to Metal Casting if Iron is found. When we are done exploring, we should send a warrior to keep constant watch on Jao's military buildup. This will tell us whether we need to research Archery ASAP.

Again, my $0.02 is we have no need for Archery or Iron Working until we've secured all our ancient era wonders. I agree with all the steps you outlined in terms of city build order, though I would like to get a Missionary or two build for Joao and Wang Kon. Getting them to Pleased should be an immediate goal, and we can get +3 for shared religion from both of them.

One other question: what do we want our first GP to be? We could probably grab a priest by detouring to Priesthood, whipping a temple and running a priest; or an Engineer from the Pyramids; or a Scientist by getting a library up quickly and running some scientists. Or a coin flip by getting a specialist up in the GemPyramid city.

I'd say let the chips fall where they may, a Great Merchant is fantastic as it will let our capital work two Scientist specialists. A Great Engineer is fantastic because, well, 3 hammers per turn will speed up the Great Library by quite a bit. A Great Prophet is fantastic for the Shrine, or maybe for the Hammers first and then a Shrine later. A Great Scientist is great for the Academy. We don't have to fear artist pollution.

Edit: Also, for the record, I think Joao like Hereditary Rule and Wang likes Caste System.

Correct, neither of which we will ever run .

Darrell

 

[Sullla]

Uh, I don't really have a lot to add, since I think the rest of the team has already thrown out some exceptionally good discussion. I'll just echo darrell's last comment on it not mattering too much what Great People we land first, as a Great Merchant super-specialist from the Lighthouse would work wonders for our variant, and an Engineer would be almost as good.

Once we get gems city founded (probably on Zeviz's upcoming turnset), I'll see if I can create a more polished dotmap and add in a "chopping map" as well. That's not something I've seen happen very often in a SG!

 

[Compromise]

I forgot to mention that the AI barbs--warriors and archers--in my test games started rushing the cities a little after 600BC.

The only thing that seems not totally clear before Zeviz plays is the next tech. I think it will be a while before we can start on the Colossus, and I don't think there's a rush against the AI to land it. I still support Ironworking, in part because I think that will allows us to make a fairly complete dotmap.

So, I vote for Zeviz playing and teching IW after finishing Pottery. If necessary, I'd suggest playing a few extra turns and actually discovering IW so we can see where to go to get metal (if anywhere). [And, of course, he'll have to reread the last 752 posts of this thread to make sure he doesn't make even a single misclick in his turnset! ]

 

[Zeviz]

So should I play until IW comes in, if it will take only a couple extra turns?

And for long-term plans, if we are going to put Colossus in Deer City, what about putting Great Library in Mound City, and settling all super specialists there? That city will have best production, so it will be able to build enhancing buildings like univercity and market more quickly, giving its commerce and production higher bonus than that of other cities.

 

[Sullla]

Play the usual 10 turns. We aren't producing settlers THAT fast. There will be plenty of time to see the iron locations and discuss what to do as a group.

 

[Zeviz]

First, let's take a look at the demographics:



#1 in GNP (even before Colossus) and #last in production (and #6 in food). The situation will only get worse as the game goes on, so we'll have to win through technological superiority, powered by our wonders.

Confuscianism is founded in 975BC. I put more experienced Warrior into Poverty Point and move less experienced one towards Gem site. The other warrior also goes in that direction.

950BC Pottery -> IW(9) For comparison, Metal Casting would take 22. Aestetics(15)-> Literature(12) would be needed for GL. Currency would also take 20, Monarchy 15. Hunting(2)->Archery(3) is an option, but I like the suggestion to train two missionaries instead.

I whip the Settler, putting overflow into Granary. Poverty Point also puts Granary at the top of the queue. Two of our warriors and a Korean one are converging towards the barb warrior.

Next turn Poverty Point whips its Granary. The very minor overflow will go into Library. I have to MM Mound City, because barb warrior stepped on the hill it was working and stupid governor decided to work empty grassland.

Koreans convert to Hinduism, taking them up to Pleased. Now we just need religion to spread to Portugal. By the way, Portugal now has 4 cities. Korea has 3.

Gem City is founded in 850BC. It will be completely useless after building Pyramids, because it's only two high food tiles are Flood Plains and Jungle.

Meanwhile, exploring warrior goes north to see what the Portugese are up to.

In 775 BC borders of Poverty Point expand, almost giving us control of two more forests. (Our influence goes from 43% to 47%) Next turn we go up to 50% on both squares.

And thus ends my turnset. We are just 1 turn away from IW, but I restrained myself from pressing Enter one more time.

Here is an overview of our empire:


Note barbarian borders to south-east of capital.

Portugese stack in their capital has split up to escort settlers and they have another settler there. We might have to close borders if they try to settle in our back yard.

Most of our production will have to come from the whip, and I suggest whipping capital's granary and putting overflow into missionary for the Pyramids city.

Almost forgot to mention the wonders:
Oracle was built in 1000BC
Great Wall in 800BC
None of the 3 wonders build by AI so far were on our continent, and Oracle and Stonehenge are in the same city.

PS There is another good reason to stop now. I re-checked trade screen and saw the following:

The techs weren't there last turn, so he literally just discovered Alphabet. (The reason he doesn't want to attack Korea is "We just don't like you enough.")

We can get all three techs for Math + Polytheism, which sounds like a good deal to me. He is refusing Alphabet for Math trade. And Math+Polytheism for Alphabet+Hunting+last turn of IW sounds better than Math+Agriculture for Alphabet alone. Although we need just 32 beakers towards IW, so it might not be worthwhile to get closer to "too advanced" limit for just 32 beakers.

 

[darrelljs]

Confuscianism is founded in 975BC. I put more experienced Warrior into Poverty Point and move less experienced one towards Gem site. The other warrior also goes in that direction.

Hmm...you noted The Oracle was built in 1000 B.C (hopefully that wasn't some Industrious AI pulling a Farseer slingshot on us). That means some AI out there is teching fairly well. I expect we'll see a Taoism lightbulb in the not too distant future . With any luck there will be some war mongerers on the other continent(s) to keep them from getting ahead of us.

Koreans convert to Hinduism, taking them up to Pleased. Now we just need religion to spread to Portugal. By the way, Portugal now has 4 cities. Korea has 3.

That is indeed excellent news. With that many cities out there, I think we should have gone for Currency before Iron Working but I guess we didn't know at the time. I'd favor Currency next, based on Compromise's analysis of The Great Library and Colossus builds dates.

Gem City is founded in 850BC. It will be completely useless after building Pyramids, because it's only two high food tiles are Flood Plains and Jungle.

That Gems will be tradeable for 10+ gold/turn, so not completely useless. If we settle a GM there, it can run two Scientist specialists. I'd favor that to increase the opportunities for getting a Great Engineer from the Pyramids (even if the odds per opportunity go down).

Oracle and Stonehenge are in the same city.

Just curious, how do you know this? It certainly feels like Hatshepsut to me .

We can get all three techs for Math + Polytheism, which sounds like a good deal to me. He is refusing Alphabet for Math trade. And Math+Polytheism for Alphabet+Hunting+last turn of IW sounds better than Math+Agriculture for Alphabet alone. Although we need just 32 beakers towards IW, so it might not be worthwhile to get closer to "too advanced" limit for just 32 beakers.

Yeah...I know this is only Noble but to waste one point towards WFYABTA on 32 beakers is IMHO. I think Alphabet+Hunting for Mathematics+Polytheism is a fine trade. It might even get us a +1 trade relations bonus .

Darrell

 

[Sullla]

OK, I took a look at the save. I won't be able to play until tomorrow (teaching today and then a baseball game tonight, yay!) so there's plenty of time for discussion if needed. I concur with darrell's post above that it's silly to pick up Iron Working when we're one turn away. The Alphabet + Hunting deal looks like a good one though.

Let me do a city by city breakdown and give you some thoughts.

Cahokia: The next whip in this city needs to be a granary, IMO. We delayed granaries to get wonders up and running, and that WAS the right move. But now we desperately need to increase our rate of growth, as 3 food/turn with nothing saved in the box is mighty, mighty slow. After that, either another settler or military. Library can wait here for the moment, IMO. (Our coastal cities are the strongest in terms of commerce.)

Poverty Point: We have a granary here, a corn resource, and lots of two-food water tiles. This looks like our strongest city in the immediate future. I plan to let it keep growing for now, then whip the library when possible. This will be our top commerce city as soon as it grows another size. The one concern is our low health cap; we may want to trade for Joao's cows or sheep resources to help out. Something to consider for the future, anyway.

Mound City: Still getting started. The lack of a 3-food tile here is definitely slowing it down. Good news is that we already have the lighthouse knocked out, so it can finally start growing and pulling in commerce. I would vote for a whip on its granary when it becomes available, with the overflow going into Maoi Statues. We can hold off on a library here, getting the Statues going is a much higher priority (after granary, naturally).

The Canyon: Not much to say here, it's a brand new city. Cross our fingers and hope Hinduism spreads soon, so we can start finishing off those forest chops!

And one other "big picture" thing, just wanted to work off of a comment from Zeviz:

#1 in GNP (even before Colossus) and #last in production (and #6 in food). The situation will only get worse as the game goes on, so we'll have to win through technological superiority, powered by our wonders.

That's certainly correct in things getting worse as the game progresses. But I don't think we're ever going to get enough commerce to pull off a major tech lead (hopefully I'm wrong!) No, the way we win is by being much, much BIGGER than all the other civs, using our sheer size to offset our weak cities. That's why this continent is such a favorable draw, giving us the chance to settle 10-12 cities without even needing to fight. If we can land the whole south without getting wiped out, I'm confident that we'll be able to find a way to win later on.

 

[TheArchduke]

Lurker's comment:

A nasty variant indeed, I will watch this one happily from the sidelines.

 

[darrelljs]

Mound City: Still getting started. The lack of a 3-food tile here is definitely slowing it down. Good news is that we already have the lighthouse knocked out, so it can finally start growing and pulling in commerce. I would vote for a whip on its granary when it becomes available, with the overflow going into Maoi Statues. We can hold off on a library here, getting the Statues going is a much higher priority (after granary, naturally).

We also have some hammers invetsed in a Totem Pole here, we can do another whip after the Granary whip's unhappiness wears out to get some more Maoi overflow. If we aren't going to make this our super specialist city, I would vote we put Heroic Epic in.

Darrell

 

[Compromise]

More good discussion points. I have to find time to think about them.

For planning purposes, I pasted two screenshots together. I thought I'd share the combined image in case anyone else wants to take a shot at dotmapping our subcontinent:

 

[darrelljs]

Hmm...if Mound City is connected to Korea, and Korea is connected Joao, and Joao is connected to our west, is Mound City connected to our west?

I think we need a chop map, right now we are working our way towards losing any shot at The Hanging Gardens.

Darrell

 

[Compromise]

Okay, here's an even better screenshot. I've counted up the breakeven food tiles--at least ones that aren't assigned to a now-existing city--for every possible coastal site and the couple of inland resource-on-a-river sites.

Red dot indicates a resource that can be settled on and connected via coast or river. The number is the number of breakeven food squares with a lighthouse (if coastal). Sites that have access to a seafood have a "+" attached to their number.

I didn't pay attention to inland food bonus tiles (there may not even be any except deer which aren't really much of a bonus). I also didn't distinguish coast from ocean (figured that would be more of a tiebreaker).

 

[Zeviz]

That map looks quite promising. We have space for at least 14 coastal cities. (A few more if we pack them more tightly.)

If we get Pyramids, we might consider putting coastal cities at minimal distance because each of them will get:
4cpt from trade (GL+Currency)
1cpt from city tile
6cpt from free scientist (Mercantelism)
6cpt from scientist to cap growth
= 17cpt without working a single tile

So these cities would not only pay for themselves, but provide better tile utilization while neighbors are regrowing population. (We'll be building things by whipping, but want to work all water tiles all the time. And whipping is more efficient for smaller cities.) What is the smallest city size for drafting?

So my suggestion would be to map out cities spaced 2 tiles from each other all along the coast, but found the best ones first and fill in the gaps after Mercantelism.

[2 wonders in a city]
Just curious, how do you know this? It certainly feels like Hatshepsut to me .
...

In the Cities and Wonders tab of F9 report, the top city ("unknown") is listed as having both Stonehenge and Oracle. And it does feel like a religious AI with Marble. I wouldn't be surprised if we see ToA built there soon.