SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Well, I can't speak for everyone else but I have felt from the beginning that none of my comments or presence has mattered. This hasn't been a team game since the beginning. You have made all the decisions, shot down anyone whose opinion differed from yours and generally made this not a lot of fun. I know why you have such a good plan (Mesix and I do work together) but that doesn't make it perfect (or right). You seem real full of yourself and are IMO the non-team player.
Why should anyone comment on your PPP? It won't matter. You are going to do whatever you want. In addition to that, we are chastised when, on our turn sets, we deviate from what you've directed us to do. And in response to an earlier comment about being a HOF QM, so am I and an EQM at Deity level to boot so I also "understand how the game works".
So you can take this however you want but the bottom-line is that this was supposed to be a fun team game not a exercise in how well the rest of us can do what their told. BTW this is mainly addressed to Blubmuz.

I know that you know.
And i know about your Deity EQM.
But i disagree about your comments on "everyone must follow my directions etc." you know how little room for mistakes is given at quick speed and you also know that for a CS sling we was tied to certain moves.
But comments on my strategy now are necessary.
I'm not sure, despite my intensive testing that what i proposed is the best possible strategy.
Thus i need your comments, the team needs more comments.

Since "you know", have you tried some test? And posted your comments?
Mesix informed us that he was goin' to build an odeon and a temple instead of workers in LP?
Or that he disagreed on the cities and that he would stop with settlers?
Have you seen some discussion before Mesix's TS?
No.
He was too busy with his Deity EQM, Sweeta wasn't around, you appear only now after ... let me see ... 04/30, GB despite his efforts on the tests not comments too much (well i sincerely didn't like that forest chop), Simon so so, Berserks is out.

I think a pause is needed to clarify our thoughts on this team.
And to draw a mid term strategy.
This is the right moment to do so, it's where lots of alternatives are present.

 

[Simon_c]

Simon so so

I find it hard to argue with details plans, cos I never plan my playing to that level of details so I can't offer any comments with full justification.

I'll try to come up with some thoughts on strategy tonight though (maybe even later today), but as I'm not a very efeciant in my playing, I suspect it will be some ideas of what not to do

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't even see a PPP here that I can comment on. I can see a post saying what the overall plans are, nothing indicating that post 592.

There's some high level ideas of what the turnset should do. Great, but I didn't see a structured post about what cities were doing, and why.

I can get that for a truly competitive submission we have to plan more so the thinking time is before playing, instead of a turnset taking hours, it's the planning that takes days. But, I don't think BLubmuz is being fair in asking for fine details from everybody else, getting cross when things deviate slightly, and then just submitting an overall outline for his own turnset.

So, are we going to have detailed PPPs. or just post an overview of the ideas ?

Maybe you oversighted it, it's a PPP! Together with #3, of course.
I detailed the build queues for every city and the research.

Sure i must revise it if you disagree with settle a city on the Rockies.
Also if you think a detour to DR is too much i have to revise my mid-term strategy.
But surely an half turn detour for Poly is worth, since we can trade for Mono with Hammu. But we have to agree on this too.

To promote my DR detour can i say that is an expensive tech which can give us a good WW (Versailles) and that is tradeable with Engineering?
Can i also add that build the HS will save us from build too much workers? (maintenance and build turns). And that we can have another trade option?

I think that from now on posting the worker actions on a PPP is too much: just indicate the important roads and the forests to chop in BFC, if any.

Techs to not be traded:
- Philo (but only for my TS, then we'll be so close to Lib that is just a good tech to trade, maybe for Feud)
- Paper/Edu: never, until after we'll have won the Economics race. And only for very good trades.
We can trade for GP with the other continent for good tech.
I hope you know that the AIs on our continent do not know the ones on the other.
Just see the relations tab in F4.

Back to my PPP: no settler if you disagree on the Rockies city.
I agree with Sweeta for the furry island: let's jump a Para there, maybe 2 to avoid the barbs will whip. He/They are more than enough to take it and he/they can jump back home while we airlift a Xbow for MP duty.

I'll wait for the opinions of all the team members before to play.

 

[BLubmuz]

I find it hard to argue with details plans, cos I never plan my playing to that level of details so I can't offer any comments with full justification.

I'll try to come up with some thoughts on strategy tonight though (maybe even later today), but as I'm not a very efeciant in my playing, I suspect it will be some ideas of what not to do

Your last TS was simply perfect.
Not only you MMed well, but you also indicated the best city sites.
Don't diminish yourself.

 

[Simon_c]

I guess I was expecting a
Here's my PPP.

at the top

Not only you MMed well, but you also indicated the best city sites.

Thanks, but I mainly just took the city sites that had already been discussed and marked them up on the map so I knew where they were. Oh yes, and added one or two more.

Also, I find there's too many abbreviations in your posts. FP and LP I can just about cope with, but DR, HS, GH etc etc just detract from reading and thinking about the post because I've got to *alway* figure out what the abbreviations mean.

I always miss stuff in post#3 too. I tend to know if I should look at the thread based on the emails the forums system throws at me, so I can miss stuff like that.

I think that from now on posting the worker actions on a PPP is too much: just indicate the important roads and the forests to chop in BFC, if any.

OK.
How about we draw on the map planned roads, chops etc ? Or do people like their map clutter free ?
I tend to even draw BFCs on my own maps sometimes.

To promote my DR detour can i say that is an expensive tech which can give us a good WW (Versailles) and that is tradeable with Engineering?
Can i also add that build the HS will save us from build too much workers? (maintenance and build turns). And that we can have another trade option?

Do we have the build slots to build two expensive wonders ? I'd have thought we'd be better off building paras so we can keep the AIs in check.
Does the put into Versailles pay of them selves in terms of reduced maintenance or would we be better off building for the same amount of time :dono:
Again, are the put into the Hagia Sophia worth it, or should be build 8 more workers ? I've never played a game where I'm so focused on the finish date, so I really don't know the answers to these.

We also need to get some boats in the water. There's three barb galleys about. The northern nets are safe, ish, due to the ice, but the southern ones aren't.

Looking at the other team's scores, I wonder if murky waters captured Atlantis rather than start a war with Hammy ?

The Joao is building Airships, so that will do a little damage, but probably easier to take out than troops. Afterall, we can paradrop in on him


We need to get production up in New York or Panama City, or forget about a Navy until Carvels. Nothing we build in LP can get past the ice. At the least Panama needs a work boat and a trireme or even two.


I also just checked, Joao has enough on his hands !! And we're the only target it can be.
I think we need to do something to bind him into 10 (or whatever on quick) turns of peace. Maybe see if he'll give us 1gp/turn or something ? Lib is going to be 11 turns away and the power graph looks scary !

If we can't get a peace treaty from Joao until we get Paras then I don't think we can afford to build anything in Panama other than defenders. Is it worth the worker down there to mine the pigs until we get the infrastructure sorted ?

 

[berserks01]

Aw, come on guys. Just cuz I'm out doesn't mean it's time for internal dissent, though it's a good excuse Even if it is, the fall guy should be the one who's out and can't play/deny any accusations (which means me)

This is a team game, thus mistakes are bound to happen and ideas are bound to conflict. Just make sure we see what the others are saying and discuss it out. Not just shot down without just cause/reason.

 

[BLubmuz]

I guess I was expecting a
Here's my PPP. Yeah, forgot that
Also, I find there's too many abbreviations in your posts. FP Forbidden Palace and LPLaunchPad I can just about cope with, but DR, HS, GH Divine Right, Hagia Sophia, GP, maybe? = GunPowder. Are common abbreviations, just to save some time and effort etc etc just detract from reading and thinking about the post because I've got to *alway* figure out what the abbreviations mean.

I always miss stuff in post#3 too. I tend to know if I should look at the thread based on the emails the forums system throws at me, so I can miss stuff like that.
Bad! #2 and #3 are there to be read every time you consult this thread.
I keep them always updated (well with some minor distraction now and then)

How about we draw on the map planned roads, chops etc ? Or do people like their map clutter free ? I did it once, we can use that.
I tend to even draw BFCs on my own maps sometimes.

Do we have the build slots to build two expensive wonders ? I'd have thought we'd be better off building paras so we can keep the AIs in check. The HS only costs like 2 Paras. Workers not only cost in term of turns, but mainly in maintenance. I have no doubt on building it, my doubts are on the tech detour.
Does the put into Versailles pay of them selves in terms of reduced maintenance or would we be better off building for the same amount of time :dono: Every city will build stuff until very late in the game. But again, i'm not completely sure about the effort in terms of and, mainly, on the tech detour. We can't be absolutely sure Engineering will be on the table, but IF it will be DR is the right tech to trade. And it costs roughly the same beakers. With a useful WW, too.
Again, are the put into the Hagia Sophia worth it, or should be build 8 more workers ? I've never played a game where I'm so focused on the finish date, so I really don't know the answers to these. see above

We also need to get some boats in the water. There's three barb galleys about. The northern nets are safe, ish, due to the ice, but the southern ones aren't.
have you seen which kind of promos the barb galleys have? A galleon can maybe be enough, no less. The solution is simple: build LH (lighthouses), the work boats/nets will arrive when we'll have a frigate to deal with those galleys.

Looking at the other team's scores, I wonder if murky waters captured Atlantis rather than start a war with Hammy ? It's not worth the effort: just more maintenance. We can consider it after we'll take all our continent, maybe with some amphibius Para.

The Joao is building Airships, so that will do a little damage, but probably easier to take out than troops. Afterall, we can paradrop in on him In my tests all the AI have lots of airships. The solution is simple: don't promote them until they actually fight. A para has 24 strenght and he can be reduced to 19.2 by airships. Once you promote him he will go around 21,5+10% they can fight also in Yellow condition against the weakest defenders, even in red (around 9.0) against cats or trebs. Play some test using WB, so you can verify. A knight is 10 strenght, usually you're not afraid to use him against a cat.
We need to get production up in New York or Panama City, or forget about a Navy until Carvels. Nothing we build in LP can get past the ice. At the least Panama needs a work boat and a trireme or even two. We'll start a navy after Frigates.
I also just checked, Joao has enough on his hands !! And we're the only target it can be. No. We're 3 on our continent. He hates Hammu and he's pleased with us.
Expect a nice war between them. We'll gather the rests
I think we need to do something to bind him into 10 (or whatever on quick) turns of peace. Maybe see if he'll give us 1gp/turn or something ? Lib is going to be 11 turns away and the power graph looks scary ! see above

If we can't get a peace treaty from Joao until we get Paras then I don't think we can afford to build anything in Panama other than defenders. Is it worth the worker down there to mine the pigs until we get the infrastructure sorted ?

All are MY answers, but i'd like to see them commented by the other members.

Anyway, to complete my thoughts on Joao, we can build 2 Xbows in 3 turns in LP, then airlift them in Panama or Sparta.

 

[Simon_c]

Is the AI really stupid enough to walk through us, much lower in power, and attack Hammy at the other end of the continent ? Then the AI is bonkers.

I always check #3 when I start playing, but not when I look at this thread. I tend to glaze over what I've already read. Just the way I read....

 

[Mesix]

GP = Gun Powder, Great Prophet, and Great People
FP = Flood Plains and Forest Preserve

Those are two abbreviations that I often confuse in your posts.

One more...CS = Civil Service and Caste System

It is better to spell it out for us slow guy...Timmy!

 

[BLubmuz]

GP = Gun Powder, Great Prophet, and Great People
FP = Flood Plains and Forest Preserve There's also a contest in which those abbreviations are used
Those are two abbreviations that I often confuse in your posts.

One more...CS = Civil Service and Caste System

It is better to spell it out for us slow guy...Timmy!

But... OK, i promise to use less abbreviations if you tell me what/who this Timmy is.
It's the 2nd post of yours with that name mentioned.

 

[Mesix]

Timmy is a character from South Park.

 

[BLubmuz]

Timmy is a character from South Park.

Thank you, i see. I watch only the news on TV, so i has to find it in the Wiki. I should have heard something 'bout that.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have been out of town for the last two days and unable to comment and think in depth. I have already addressed some of my thoughts with team playing and differences of opinion. A team comes with good and bad. Misclicks, missed opportunities and differences of opinion.

Blubmuz is a strong proponent of his plans. I wouldn't expect someone to spend so much time proposing a plan if they didn't think so much of it. It doesn't mean it is or isn't the best path of all available. That's why we need to look at it and suggest any changes. If you remember I proposed a different path and the general decision was to pass it by. I'm over it and will try to make the current plan work as should every other team member. (If perchance another team uses it and wins, I'll be ready with the, "I told you so!") IF you feel strongly about something and believe the other party is wrong or there is a better path, give your reasons. That is the only way anyone can make an informed decision and in cases of irreconcilable options, we put it to a vote.

Unfortunately there isn't always any way of determining a "better" path without doing lots of testing. It is difficult for everyone to accomplish at the same as real life can consume a lot of someone's Civ time. Of course just because there is lots of testing doesn't mean the game will turn out the same, but it should give a reasonable idea. That's why I stress using the latest modified save with all the same civs.

Given all that I have proposed before and outlining several things, some of which have already been addressed, perhaps Blubmuz can link them to the first page. This should make play go somewhat quicker.

Tech path - Once it is set, there is no need to argue or explore it. ( Yes, I've seen your post Blubmuz, but I mean every tech detailed)
City locations - Again let's get them decided, if we're off by a tile, we'll learn to live with it.
Civics - What we will use and when, if ever, we want to change
Civs - which ones, if any, to befriend and to which to always spurn

Perhaps there are other things we can pretty much set in stone.

We also need to learn that if something isn't detailed and we don't like the result, let's live with it. Analysis of what was wrong and why, or what was better and why, should be used for improving our individual play. Not for making one of us feel stupid or superior. I feel that's why we play a team game. To learn from each other. I try to play all the GOTMs including Civ 3. I try several tests for for all the Civ4 games as I didn't start playing it until it had been out for several months.

Even someone who's not an EQM can have a good idea or see something others don't. I'm not knocking the EQM as it takes a lot of time and submissions and not everyone has the time to do so.
Remember there are different paths to the win. Even in a game such as this where the only victory that counts is the SS win. I have been surprised in the previous two SGOTMs by the way other teams have used a path we discounted, discarded, laughed at, and disdained to win, and in some cases beat the pants off us. CRC seems to be full of surprises. Do they have a Kremlin full of supercomputers running simulations?

I would think that like me, other previous team members went back through the other team posts from previous SGOTMs to see what could be learned to improve play. You'll find that other teams disagree too. In some cases there is less MM than we do and in some cases more.

I'm not to worried about the amount of time left, ... yet.

It will be Thursday night (my time) before I can evaluate the path ahead and examine the latest save.

AS for the Forest chop and irrigation we still disagree about that!

Don't feel bad Blubmuz, I don't watch South Park either. Maybe we could all agree on what show to use for our comparisons and inside jokes.....

 

[BLubmuz]

Short answer, RL is knocking today.
I still await for suggestions for my PPP.
After my post(s) only Sweeta, Simon and GB answered on topic, asking time to analyze. Missed Unclethrill and Mesix. Still awaiting.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I feel we should head to lib and rifling asap, then re-evaluate the whole DR thing. The world just seems to be getting a little warry for my liking. We are not prepped at all for a DoW, and while it is a slim chance, it still exists from an opportunistic AI. Meanwhile, hopefully we can get up to 6 unis, along with courts, etc in the other cities.

That rockies city is a good one, and we should settle it, but perhaps in a set or 2 when we can handle it better... or maybe Ham will settle it. I think I've commented on everything else, so good to go from me if you discard the settler build. You might even get a turn or 2 of in. Good call on the navy, I think, also.

 

[Simon_c]

Yeh, no divert to DR until after paras. I'm worried about Joao, despite BLubmuz assurances

 

[unclethrill]

I've seen Poly is on the table now, but surely it's not worth one of the techs we have.
I propose to self-research it (half a turn), then trade for Mono with Hammu. I agree not to trade for. It won't be worth it
As you know, some techs are always traded by the BtS AI and Mono is one of them.
We can also see if Aestetics is on the table.

Already tested, it works.

We can offer him MC, so he will build some forge for us. Only to Hammy

Aside this, the path is clear: finish GP (1 turn), then Lib in 9. Lib for Rif is priority. We need defense

LP will immediately build a settler for the rockies, then a Galley and a couple maces to take the barb city on the furs. Luck it's in the right spot. Hold off on Galley an mace and take with couple para.

As an alternative we can wait for Paras and send a single one there. He will be enough. No need for the Galley. he can jump.
No one can access that island until Astro. Except us, of course.

Then a worker and the market will go in next TS.

Blubz Forge > Granary
Sparta will switch to a CH: it doesn't need a granary.
Panama switch to a forge, we need to build Versailles there.
NY Forge
Athens granary after MoM (1 turn, it's being chopped) then Uni.

If we manage to trade Mono with Hammu, i propose this path after Lib/Rifl:
Theo > DR > Nationalism.
Then the path to Astro, hoping to trade at least for Compass. Maybe even for Optics.
I suppose you know that Having DR we'll have a bonus in researching Nationalism.
But first, we need badly 2 FPs: this is not possible, and Versailles will be the 2nd one.

I want build the HS in LP (5-6 turns) ASA we'll have Theo.
Next GPerson will pop in 2 turns. My thoughts are already posted on #3.

Are we sure about all the WW. We need to build some troops so we don't get caught with our pants down. We also need to hold off on war until we can take on cost of new cities without tanking reaserch.

 

[BLubmuz]

Answer to last 3 posts in strict order of post.

Sweeta: It's a chance, but if we settle it, we'll be sure it will be in the right spot (unless i misclick) for this reason i propose to build the settler ASAP.
Simon: of course. Except the half-turn for Poly.
UT: I agree with your notes on my post. It's what i intended. We can consider to give MC to Joao in next TS, if we see some opportunity.

Of course i can't be sure we are not the target of Joao's "full hands". But 3 Xbows will be enough to deal with him until Paras.

In the meantime i reinstalled Civ 3 and i'm trying a game: man, i can't believe i forget almost anything about it.

I appreciated also Berserks' "peaceful" post and GB's one. Too long to comment in depht, but the Tech path can be surely be posted on #3 once we'll decide it.

Just to speed things up, some alternate paths, of course after Lib/Rifl
1) theo > DR, path to Astro (Compass > Optics), then to Bio (Eng > Chem)
2) path to Astro, then to Bio
3) invert Astro with Bio (less chances to trade for Eng and Chem)
all with an eye on the Economics race: in any way we'll use the GM it's worth the effort.
3 chances:
a) GAge together with another GPerson (i'm thinking to the GProphet that surely will pop from Athens)
b) settle him in the Wall Street city
c) found Sushi

 

[unclethrill]

In the meantime i reinstalled Civ 3 and i'm trying a game: man, i can't believe i forget almost anything about it.

Wow. I tried that a couple years back and played for about 10 minutes.

 

[Mesix]

I definately think that founding Sushi is the best use of the Great Merchant from Economics. We could settle him in the Wall Street city if our expansion has crippled our research. THe only down side to Sushi is that we really need to take out Atlantis if we plan to have many seafood resources.