Drill and Flanking: Red herrings, or am I missing something?

[Izmir Stinger]

The Drill and Flanking line of promotions seem (to me) to be objectively inferior to the Combat, City Raider, City Garrison and counter-unit promotions. I pick up one point of flanking on some naval units if I intend to pursue the navigation promotion, but otherwise, nada. Only time I've used Drill since my newb years was on one infantry unit with Warlord Leadership and the Devil's own luck that managed to get the full Combat line and Pinch.

Do you use Drill or Flanking? Why? Convince me they don't suck, or that they have some special strategic use I'm overlooking. I'll be the first to admit I don't have much of a head for numbers. Are first strikes worth more than they appear at first glance? Does a few levels of flanking dramatically increase a unit's long term survivability?

 

[tycoonist]

yeah they suck. repeated studies have found as such

 

[Izmir Stinger]

yeah they suck. repeated studies have found as such

You responded before the poll was up. Don't need to ask how you will vote.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

More information than you'd ever want:

Protective Trait-- Underrated?

First Strikes

Somebody please justify flanking for me!

Flanking(the new ability for mounted units to kill siege weapons) how does it work?

Edit: I voted they're great.

 

[troytheface]

"It (Drill) really has nothing in common to the other promotions, but is a fancy term for Armour"- obsolete

not sure how valid this statement is- however use Drill for archers and they seem like better attack units

if it is more like an "Armor" promotion then drill to formation (or even cover) might be more optimal then combat to shock. the evidence is not clear

 

[senba456]

well - flanking lets your horse units have a much higher chance of inflicting flanking damage on an enemy stack, so it's well worth it on mounted units

 

[GenerallyGreat]

Flanking mounted units>>>>>siege.

 

[pi-r8]

Both are situational, but I'm gradually finding more and more situations to use them.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

More information than you'd ever want:

Protective Trait-- Underrated?

First Strikes

Somebody please justify flanking for me!

Flanking(the new ability for mounted units to kill siege weapons) how does it work?

Edit: I voted they're great.

Well, that info convinced me to give flanking another chance. Consensus seems to be that if you aren't getting flanking 2+, you should skip it entirely, and it isn't that great on chariots and knights (I tend to skip HAs) which may be why I was underwhelmed by it.

Still not convinced drill is good. So your attackers take little/no damage killing the defenders that the artillery weakened. So what? They still have to wait for the artillery to heal. The way the AI fights you only have to repel one serious counter-attack (if that) and then they're done, so having half your units take no damage seems pointless if the other half still have to heal up from 10 HP after every captured city. I don't know... Maybe in multi-player where you have to deal with defensive siege weapons the protection from collateral damage might help, but from the links you provided, apparently the way to deal with that is flanking-promoted cavalry.

 

[BarrageQueen]

Voted flanking great, drill useful. I quite enjoy rushing with mounted units, and flanking makes for efficient city raiding without siege or other auxiliary units. Drill is fine, very good when up to drill 3 or 4, but not overall great like flanking in my view.

 

[shyuhe]

Flanking 2 cavalry are awesome. They have a minimum 50% survival rate just from the withdrawal.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

Well, so far these results have defied my expectations. Except for one guy who agreed with me wholeheartedly (and then didn't vote in the poll) everyone has given at least a nod to flanking. Drill seems more controversial, but there are only 13 votes so far. I'm slowly learning to master Emperor difficulty, and have my eyes set on Immortal one of these days, so I am always open to new ideas that will improve my game.

 

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

anything that saves your units in an unsuccessful attack is a great promotion IMO. Surviving units gain experiences, and soon you'll find yourself going down the combat line if you choose. Flanking I&II are the first promotions I put on most cavalry units anyway. Besides, collateral damage to siege units, while being the bane of my existence when fighting monty of shaka's endless stacks of cavalry vs my artillery, I can see great use for in counterattacking stack.

Drill is great when you get further down the drill line past I&II. Taking less collateral damage means stronger stacks when approaching a city. I deem this more important than the additional healing power of the later combat promotions, especially since by the time I'm using drill-promotable units in taking cities I'll probably have a super medic taking care of their wounds already.

City Raider is superior to drill for taking cities, [obviously], by by the time I have to choose between the 2 promotions, it's at tanks, and by that time wars are won more often by number than clever stack composition.

 

[Proofeta]

Usually when I chariot rush, the first ones to attack get Flanking promotions, they suicide attack to soft the defenders, but some of them survive to get flanking 2, that are great to soft the defenders.

 

[JBossch]

Promoting two or three mounted units down the flanking line right before a rush can be really helpful when you don't have any siege. They are more likely to live to fight another day and still do the job of softenign up the defenders. Also, flanking2 opens up the sentry promotion which is helpful in the early game when it is otherwise difficult to see what the AI is sending after your SoD during a rush.

Drill is good once you get to about drill4. This can be really doable with Oromos and cho-ko-nus and the results are well worth it.

 

[mariogreymist]

Chariot rush is one of my favorite early tactics, and I wholeheartedly endorse flanking for chariots. Just as JBosch says, the flanking one chariots mostly die, but those which don't become powerful tools in later battles. And even the ones which die serve as much purpose as a combat 1 chariot on the first wave...they wound the archers enough for the second wave of combat 1 chariots to finish them. I generally favor combat promotion 2-1 in my chariot builds for a mix that works for me.

Drill is useful for its ability to promote more aggressive attacks with finishing troops (be they longbows, muskets, rifles or infantry) in siege. This means you can hold some siege engines in reserve, rather than wounding them all, when attacking a city. A Drill II troop doesn't need the enemy reduced all the way to its minimum from collateral before attacking. So, while your combat promoted troops and wounded artillery heal in the captured city, the drill soldiers and reserve artillery can go to the front.

 

[Izmir Stinger]

Drill is useful for its ability to promote more aggressive attacks with finishing troops (be they longbows, muskets, rifles or infantry) in siege. This means you can hold some siege engines in reserve, rather than wounding them all, when attacking a city. A Drill II troop doesn't need the enemy reduced all the way to its minimum from collateral before attacking. So, while your combat promoted troops and wounded artillery heal in the captured city, the drill soldiers and reserve artillery can go to the front.

I'm still not sure what the key difference is. Tell me if this sounds right? "A Drill promoted unit has a lower chance of success than a Combat/CR promoted unit, but when it wins it takes less damage. This fact, combined with resistance to collateral damage from defending siege, allow an assault to move from target to target more quickly, but with potentially higher losses." Does that sum up drill? If I am understanding it right, I'm still not sure i like it.

I tend to be a bit of a builder, though, so when I go to conquer, I have very narrow objectives and then plan to bring the smallest amount of troops necessary to get the job done with minimal risk. That usually means EVERYBODY fights, even the lowly spearman with medic 2 that was just there as a combination medic/chariot counter. By the time he fights there is one archer with .3 strength left, but still, he has to earn his keep. Maybe this is why I don't find drill useful. No matter what I did, the assault would have to pause after every city taken.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Flanking 2 cavalry are awesome. They have a minimum 50% survival rate just from the withdrawal.

Horse archers are 50%. Cavalry are even more.

I use flanking every time I use mounted (though it isn't the only promo I take). Drill I don't use quite as consistently but it definitely has its place in the game. Due to how drill defenders are coded poorly to be picked, first strike immunity on some of the higher base STR units, and general lack of AI ability to use siege properly, I wouldn't call drill "great" in single player, though.

 

[Murky]

Drill is OK, but I rarely use it. Flanking is more useful, but I tend to only put it on some of my Calvary. They both increase unit survivability somewhat. Calvary with flanking II is great against city defenders and seige units.

 

[troytheface]

a barracks first build and protective give drill 2 and garrison

two barbarian fights and its cover and formation- 5 promotions- (is that the cap on fighting barbs?)

i will use a protective civ and drill/cover/formation in a counterattack walkthrough