Afforess
The White Wizard
Crossbowman. Are they overpowered, too cheap, or do they just get unlocked too early?
(Sorry for posting the question late...)
(Sorry for posting the question late...)
Question of The Week: Crossbowman
- Thread starter Afforess
- Start date
RobO
King
civ_king is onto something there.
But didn't Zap redistribute unit strengths in 2,9? I seem to remember a discussion about that. If so, it's worth checking what that did to the Crossbowman comoared to other units.
But didn't Zap redistribute unit strengths in 2,9? I seem to remember a discussion about that. If so, it's worth checking what that did to the Crossbowman comoared to other units.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
For some reason i always get longbowmen before crossbowmen. Please do not link crossbowmen with feudalism, that's the longbowmen's tech.
Schwarzbart
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2009
- Messages
- 528
As it is right now I personaly would switch strength and cost of the Crossbow with the Longbow. But from my Feeling and knowledge of the history I would place the Longbow earlyer into the technology then the crossbow and not as it is now later. Maybe removing City Planing as requirement from Feudalism and add it to Machinery because City Gate and Treadmill Crane both require the city planing in my option.
I think crossbows are just a bit too tough. I almost never make Longbows because I usually have crossbows by the time I get Feudalism.
Crossbows have been around for a very long time with some historical references to them being used over 2000 years ago, so I wouldn't want to push them higher on the tech tree. They just shouldn't completely outclass Longbows.
Longbows fire much faster than the fastest light crossbows, have greater range, and greater piercing power. The downside is they required a lot more training and skill to use (and some strength). The great thing about the light crossbows was you could get people trained quickly because they were easy to use.
Later, lever drawn and windlass cranked crossbows allowed for very heavy draw weights and more piercing power (and much slower rate of fire). This is when they started talking about banning crossbows in the medieval era, because it didn't sit right that a bunch of peasants could take out aristocrats wearing heavy armor.
I think a simple solution would be to lower the strength of the crossbow to 8 and lower the cost appropriately. The crossbow would still be really nasty when used aggressively against infantry, but would be more easily countered by offensive cavalry and defending longbows.
A bit more work would be to have a light crossbow appear early. Suggestion would be 6 strength, and be unlocked by Vassalage with a secondary requirement of Siege Warfare. Then push the regular 9 strength crossbow from Machinery up to Engineering. This would make Vassalage a little more attractive to militaristic players too.
Crossbows have been around for a very long time with some historical references to them being used over 2000 years ago, so I wouldn't want to push them higher on the tech tree. They just shouldn't completely outclass Longbows.
Longbows fire much faster than the fastest light crossbows, have greater range, and greater piercing power. The downside is they required a lot more training and skill to use (and some strength). The great thing about the light crossbows was you could get people trained quickly because they were easy to use.
Later, lever drawn and windlass cranked crossbows allowed for very heavy draw weights and more piercing power (and much slower rate of fire). This is when they started talking about banning crossbows in the medieval era, because it didn't sit right that a bunch of peasants could take out aristocrats wearing heavy armor.
I think a simple solution would be to lower the strength of the crossbow to 8 and lower the cost appropriately. The crossbow would still be really nasty when used aggressively against infantry, but would be more easily countered by offensive cavalry and defending longbows.
A bit more work would be to have a light crossbow appear early. Suggestion would be 6 strength, and be unlocked by Vassalage with a secondary requirement of Siege Warfare. Then push the regular 9 strength crossbow from Machinery up to Engineering. This would make Vassalage a little more attractive to militaristic players too.
szemek77
Prince
Basically, crossbowmen and longbowmen are very similar. The are only two differences:
first: archer and longbowmen units were used also as attacking power (mounted archers), while crosbowmen mainly as defenders. Second: crossbow is a little more powerful and can shoot with bigger frequency.
Having this in mind, I suggest:
1. Longbowmen should come much earlier than crossbowmen
2. The cost of units using archers and longbows should be cheaper than crossbowmen
3. Both should get mainly defense bonuses, but only against light units (melee and mounted). Heavy pikemen, heavy swordsmen and heavy cavalry should be almost 100% immune to archers, and 90/70% immune from long/crossbowmen
first: archer and longbowmen units were used also as attacking power (mounted archers), while crosbowmen mainly as defenders. Second: crossbow is a little more powerful and can shoot with bigger frequency.
Having this in mind, I suggest:
1. Longbowmen should come much earlier than crossbowmen
2. The cost of units using archers and longbows should be cheaper than crossbowmen
3. Both should get mainly defense bonuses, but only against light units (melee and mounted). Heavy pikemen, heavy swordsmen and heavy cavalry should be almost 100% immune to archers, and 90/70% immune from long/crossbowmen
Zimbaa
Chieftain
70% from crossbowmen? Weren't the crossbow a direct "reply" to heavily armoured infantry?
CMKMStephens
Serious.
Both the Longbow and the crossbow laid waste to heavy infantry and cavalry especially (bigger targets too...). The wikipedia page for Longbows suggests that Longbows with their high rate of fire simply bludgeoned armoured men until they could hardly move, many arrows would fail to penetrate, but the impact was more than enough (see video). Crossbows on the other hand, were more likely to penetrate plate armour.
Rate of fire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV0bTksGvxc
This one should be especially useful, armour pentration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs&feature=related
As it says:
- they're using smaller and weaker weapons than actually available in the Middle Age
- there are only two of them shooting directly into the thickest part of the armour, rather than hundreds if not thousands of armours coming in from multiple angles
- the 'armour' is actually carbon steel
Just read the column yourself
As for longbowmen coming before crossbowmen, I wouldn't say so. In terms of chronology, one type of mechanical crossbow is attested to the Greeks at 421BC for example.
Rate of fire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV0bTksGvxc
This one should be especially useful, armour pentration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs&feature=related
As it says:
- they're using smaller and weaker weapons than actually available in the Middle Age
- there are only two of them shooting directly into the thickest part of the armour, rather than hundreds if not thousands of armours coming in from multiple angles
- the 'armour' is actually carbon steel
Just read the column yourself
As for longbowmen coming before crossbowmen, I wouldn't say so. In terms of chronology, one type of mechanical crossbow is attested to the Greeks at 421BC for example.
Afforess
The White Wizard
I like the idea of adding an earlier "Light Crossbowman" and moving the other one a bit back. It would ensure that crossbowman do come before longbows, and also don't make them too OP.
What do you guys think?
E_Pluribus_Unum
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2008
- Messages
- 176
Yep. Definiatly Crossbowman is too strong.
The cost and tech is OK, but need change, so what about other options?
Weaker Crossbowman : 8
+25% melee.
(BTW Axeman +50% melee also too strong, I think +25% would fit better)
The cost and tech is OK, but need change, so what about other options?
Weaker Crossbowman : 8
+25% melee.(BTW Axeman +50% melee also too strong, I think +25% would fit better)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Afforess
Yeah Light Crossbow would make sense. I like that idea.
Yeah Light Crossbow would make sense. I like that idea.
I don't think crossbows are too strong, since I usually seem to get swordsmen (10 str) at around the same time. Its just that armies seem to be very infantry heavy in that era, and there's no great counter for them just yet (until knights/heavy calvary really).
I don't so much think the current crossbow unit is too strong, it is just available a bit too early. You can go for Machinery instead of Smithing and have the counter to Swords, Heavy Pikes, and Macemen before anyone even has Swords, Heavy Pikes, or Macemen.
Also, the Crossbow has no resource requirement, and makes both a good attacker and defender depending on which promotions you give it. It absolutely decimates Light Swords, Axemen, Pikemen. The only real counter for a while is Mounted Infantry. I know this because I have had the tech leader beeline Machinery and try to wipe me out with them, and I was cranking out Mounted Infantry to hold them off.
I will elaborate a bit on my idea.
Vassalage could be used to unlock Light Crossbows, with the secondary requirement of Siege Warfare. This is to reflect crossbows as a weapon used by conscripted peasants and not a professional military class, and also reflects a civilizations knowledge of basic siege machines (like the catapult). With 6 str and 50% vs melee, it would effectively counter the melee units of the day (light swords, axes, pikes) and be vulnerable to horseman and somewhat to wardogs (for the desperate). It would still be somewhat cost effective against the heavier armors of the swords and heavy pikes, but would not dominate them like the current crossbow does. It could even be argued these light crossbows could be 5 strength, with 50% vs melee. As long as they are priced appropriately, it shouldn't matter, as they will be able to effectively do their job. Just think of it as an axeman that doesn't require resources and kills axeman. A 5 str light crossbow would demonstrate how their value dropped off when they could no longer pierce heavy armor. (Yes, the earliest crossbows were not so great against heavy armor.)
Longbows would soon arrive with their 8 strength and city/hill defense bonuses and become much more attractive for city defense. A player who didn't have resources to make other units would find properly promoted Longbows to be the best choice on both offense and defense.
Finally, the 9 str 50% vs melee crossbow would be pushed up to Engineering. These are the advanced crossbows using cranks or levers to achieve hundreds of pounds of draw weight so they have heavy armor piercing capability. Instead of arriving just before the units it counters, it arrives about the same time. Someone who doesn't have iron could still beeline for Engineering, skipping most of the Feudalism chokepoint techs, so I think it would work nicely. Ultimately, you would have the same Crossbowman, it would just be one rung higher on the tech tree.
Sorry to beat the topic to death, but I can't tell you how many times I have thought about this when playing.
Supercheese
Zeppelin Commander
No need to apologize, that elaboration is excellent and I agree completely!
Afforess
The White Wizard
I knew what Cykur meant the first time, which is why I support it, at least for a Better RoM change. 
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