SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Silu]

Dotmap:

I made a possible dotmap:

Spoiler :

Do we really want to settle 2N of the Marble first? It does have a Cow, but if we want fast WB exploration it has no 1st ring forests to chop. Granted that we can pop borders fast with Caste, but the other site is a tad closer with a forest and some FPs, while the northern one couldn't work food for a while since we'd be throttled coastal prod -wise.

And do we have a consensus on 4th city site? I see 4 candidates, 2N of Marble, 2S of Marble, proper (freshwater) Wheat and coastal Wheat. All have different pros and cons. If the current micro plan gives 5th city 30 turns from now I'd be inclined to grab the Wheat with 4th, but that delays WB scout unless we 1) build it first in GP farm 2) settle the crappier coastal Wheat site. I might be inclined to settle the good Wheat site 4th and build a scout WB first in GP farm.

 

[mystyfly]

I'd probably prefer orange dot first, we need so many WBs and it can practically start whipping them out from the getgo. Please note how the rice will be instantly irrigated due to our CS slingshot

Updated PPP.

 

[Silu]

Haha good to mention the Rice thing, didn't think of that. My brain can't fathom a 1600BC CS apparently... Yeah, I like orange as well, even if it does give a fair chance ZY will beat us to the Wheat (unless he's building Stonehenge).

 

[shyuhe]

The wheat isn't that big of a deal. It is likely that we will never tech AL, so pollution shouldn't become much of an issue if at all.

The orange dot as a WB farm sounds like a good idea. It will let us get the clam city online faster while giving us exploration (I think the first WB should go explore). It'll be whipping like mad for a while though.

 

[mdy]

I dont think we can switch to caste to pop the border as we'll be whipping.

If we time our whips carefully we can do this by alternating between Caste System and Slavery. (This is consistent with the whip schedule I posted for instance)

If the current micro plan gives 5th city 30 turns from now I'd be inclined to grab the Wheat with 4th, but that delays WB scout unless we 1) build it first in GP farm 2) settle the crappier coastal Wheat site. I might be inclined to settle the good Wheat site 4th and build a scout WB first in GP farm.

The current micro plan gives us 3 settlers in the next 12 turns. In terms of settler movement I think it is most efficient if the first one produced by the capital settles the two fish site, the second one the marble site, and the first built in Bombay settles the wheat to block Zara. Once this settler was whipped we would be able to run Caste for a while for border pops.

 

[mystyfly]

The current micro plan gives us 3 settlers in the next 12 turns. In terms of settler movement I think it is most efficient if the first one produced by the capital settles the two fish site, the second one the marble site, and the first built in Bombay settles the wheat to block Zara. Once this settler was whipped we would be able to run Caste for a while for border pops.

First we need to agree to a settling order. I prefer fish > orange > marble > wheat, as does shyuhe I think.

 

[mdy]

First we need to agree to a settling order. I prefer fish > orange > marble > wheat, as does shyuhe I think.

The problem with this is that there is a risk Zara might settle it before we got there.

 

[mystyfly]

This is true, however, this is only emperor so the settling pace is not so high, plus there's desert between him and the wheat site, that will slow him down even further.

Once all have agreed on the current PPP I could play until AH, first settler will go to the fish site anyway I think, then we can talk more about future settling.

 

[Mutineer]

really, folk, the only city we really pressed to settle is Wheat.

Everything else there only small risk of barbarian city to spawn, and this risk is very small.

So, I do not understand, why you want settler soo fast with out supporting workers.

I see no problem getting a settler per 9 or 10 turns from capital and workers form bombei as fast as it can produce them.

Idea to build mids in Bombei is a bad one, as we do not want prophet pollution.

I do not mind our next GP been GS or GE, we can use bouth right now.

Remember out priorities?

Right now it is expansion and exploration.

WE need to get max sites from Zara, we need to send out workboat and we need to research Optics.

I do not care about GL that mach.

If we get GS we build academy if GE we bulb machinery.

I see our research as:
Masonry-fishing-sailing- hunting(We have camp health resource, probably need to build one more spare warrior just in case before this one)- AH- Mettalocasting-Compass-Machinery-Optics.

Even if theoretically all AI could be reached by coast, optics let as do it faster and coast way could be very complicated and long.

I really want to have WB exploration as a priority. One of possible scenarios is that there is unoccupied space near Justian or even unoccupied continent reachable by galeys.

Settling it or even spawning Vassal could be a way to victory. In short we need information as fast as possible. WB as start, optics as later.

So, first order of business is expand and send WB out.

for that we need first site to have forest to chop into WB. So, I shift wheat site to coast/Oasis tie and chop forest to send WB out.
Bombay next border expansion will be pretty soon, blocking the rest of land from Zara and this forest is good to send WB out. Us an additional bonus, city in that position will transmit irrigation to wheat, when city on hill make wheat irrigation impossible.








There a few posible scanarious I see.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1. mysty, please note that I updated my worker suggestions for you. My orignal ideas were not based on testing. I have now tested and I encourage you to at least try it out a time or two to get a feel fro the next few turns. I have appended Mutineer's save with the warrior and axe already moved so it starts like the real save. In particular, I think it's really important to remember to cancel the Conf Miss's movement immediately. (You could even open the real save and do that now, but then you have to save it and remember to use it later. I would cuz I'm forgetful.)

2. Post-AH. We don't need to decide now about the settlers if you're playing to AH. Most important, imo, is that we ensure that we'll have our chosen 6 cities for Oxford settled where we want them asap. That might mean settling wheat first, if we decide that's one of the six.

3. Post-AH. I agree with mdy that we will be switching back and forth between slavery and castes. In fact, it's unfortunate that we can't switch to castes until T103 because of pasturing the pigs in 2-fish... Stopping at AH is excellent though, because we'll want to decide whether to whip the Bombay settler on T103 or T104. It depends on whether we're lucky enough to get some forest growth there to get rid of the 1 .

4. Mysty, if you look at Zara's sabotage production cost on two consecutive turns we can determine whether he's building a settler/worker or something else. That migh also factor into our decision on where to settle.

 

[mystyfly]

Thanks LTC I updated mz PPP again. I'll play through AH a few times to make sure I don't mess up, thanks for the save as well.

mutineer: It seems like the only thing that is in the way now is teching, you don't seem to agree on masonry > ah > fishing. We surely don't need fishing>sailing before AH since we'll want to see horses and start improving cows, pigs should we settle the fish site first. Seeing horses is the only thing imo that can drastically change our dotmap now, and it would increase production should we find horses nearby (unlikely but still).

Revealing horses in my opinion is also a way of exploration as we learn more about our map.

LTC: I'll take down notes of zaras sabotage production. One other thing: you want to move the missionary to the fish spot, should it in your opinion only wait there to fogbust? What do you want to do with it afterwards? Having him spread confu makes borders pop fast which means we have less to spawnbust plus it saves us unit upkeep.

 

[Mutineer]

I do not care about horses or about improving pigs or cows. Fish should not be our first site.
It does not have forest immediately available to chop into exploration WB and we do not have spare workers turns to improve cows. Workers will connect stone and then Bombey would works 2 unimproved ties. Floodplains and forest or stone(3 hammers- same like forest).

So, I prefur to settle first city which would:

1) Claim land and resources from zara.

2) Can work reasonable tie with out any improvements.(Oasis).
3) Have forest available in small cross.

This why I suggest to shift Wheat city to coast desert adjusted diagonally to Oasis.

AS additional benefit city in that position will transmit irrigation to Wheat.


Nothing will take Fish cite away from as.

 

[babybluepants]

Damn, boys!

I go away without even a first worker complete, and return to Oracle CS. If only all games were this easy. Seriously didn't think that kind of date was possible without a second commerce tile...

It'll probably take me a couple of days catching up crazyeye before I can really contribute.

 

[mystyfly]

I do not care about horses or about improving pigs or cows. Fish should not be our first site.
It does not have forest immediately available to chop into exploration WB and we do not have spare workers turns to improve cows. Workers will connect stone and then Bombey would works 2 unimproved ties. Floodplains and forest or stone(3 hammers- same like forest).

With your settling order going fishing\sailing before AH makes even less sense. Do you agree if I tech masonry > AH and then pause my set? We can still discuss settling as the settler won't be done by then.

Welcome back bbp and have fun catching up

 

[Mutineer]

Well, I really want to have fishing available when settler is put, so WB is first thin we started to build.

I suppous we will research it fast enough.

2 turns masonry with current capital configuration, we can fire specialists in bombey right now, it still will be 2 turns. We do not want Bombey to produce gP anyway. 2 or 3 turns probably for AH if capital in present configuration.

WE we harry with academy and want to push out GS from capital, we probably can keep present configuration untill slavery, building granary.

So, if suggestion is:

Build worker in bombey. Fire specialists in Bombey.
switch to granary in capital, after 2 turns (massonry) fire specialists in favor of working plain forests.

then we probably will have AH in 5 turns (need check), probably good time to stop.

Warrior can go explore coast near wheat, may be there some other sea resource.

Just watch out for Barbarian warrior there, I sow a few turns ago.

I will agree with that.

 

[mystyfly]

Some things nobody has yet commented on from the PPP:

- Do we want to OB with zara?

- OK if we switch EPs to just?

Mutineer, MM and worker actions are described in detail in the PPP.

One other thing I noticed: Currently, the slider is at 90%, can we afford to run 0% for one turn to be able to run 100% afterwards, in other words, does this not collide with our improvements or settling plans?

 

[Mutineer]

yes, we need masonry Now so workers can start improvement straight away, after 2 turns to build road(Masonry research take 2 turns)

there still 3 worker turns left to finish road at stone, before starting Quarry.

so yes, 1 worker/turn of farming floodplains exist befor masonry is ready.

we really need more workers.

I disagree with capital micro very mach.

all overflows and chops should go to Mids.
NO point to spawn settlers with out having workers to improve ties. They are not going anywere.

so my propous is Bombey produce only workers, capital produce only whipe settlers.

In that case we will be able to keep up improvements with settling.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One other thing: you want to move the missionary to the fish spot, should it in your opinion only wait there to fogbust? What do you want to do with it afterwards?

Dunno. We're going to use castes to pop borders, but that's 3t with Confucianism, 4t without. The gambler in me says mdy's idea to save the Miss is good. The superstition in me says if we pollute our GP farm with one more turn of GA, then we'll pop a GA on our first try. Furthermore, 3t border expansion in 2-fish works better with the worker MM, because they're ready to start pasturing the pigs already. Otherwise they road the cows for a turn, which is also okay since Bombay is . But that won't help till we connect them up somehow.

why you want settler soo fast with out supporting workers.

Idea to build mids in Bombei is a bad one, as we do not want prophet pollution.

WE need to get max sites from Zara, we need to send out workboat and we need to research Optics.

I see our research as:
Masonry-fishing-sailing- hunting(We have camp health resource, probably need to build one more spare warrior just in case before this one)- AH- Mettalocasting-Compass-Machinery-Optics.

So, first order of business is expand and send WB out.

for that we need first site to have forest to chop into WB. So, I shift wheat site to coast/Oasis tie and chop forest to send WB out.
Bombay next border expansion will be pretty soon, blocking the rest of land from Zara and this forest is good to send WB out. Us an additional bonus, city in that position will transmit irrigation to wheat, when city on hill make wheat irrigation impossible.

0. I agree that both exploration and wheat are important. Btw, I didn't know a desert city spreads irrigation...thanks for that. If we're interested in the oasis/coast site, then I think the warrior at the river site should immediately go NE and see if there's any seafood over there. Plus, mysty will monitor the sab-prod so we'll know if Zara is building a settler. Anyway, we don't need to commit ourselves to any city till after mysty's turnset break. How does that sound?

1. Not only do both marble and 2-fish have worker support, but the mdy/LC plan is pasturing the 2-fish cows faster than 2-fish can even use them because of working an artist (by 1t). There is also a worker immediately available for the marble cow pasture. If you want, we'll even hire a cook to bake you a cowpie.

2. I doubt Oasis City will get a wb up to that island faster than Marble, if we really want it that soon. (but haven't checked carefully) Marble's borders can expand as fast as the chop. [Edit: Plus, the Oasis CIty chop is faaaar away from our worker,but the Marble CIty chop is only 1 turn away...and what will our poor worker do after the chop, build sandcastles...? Endedit.] But...I personally prefer to develop Marble, chop/1popping the granary, then poprushing wbs some time later. Even if we find out we want to settle that island, we'll need to have the production capability to whip/build a galley, right?

We need both Marble and 2-fish to be able to run scis for research when we get the Pyramids (in Delhi ) in about 30 turns. Otherwise our maintenance from all these distant cities will stall our research to...Optics. Plus, we want all 6 of our Oxford cities settled and with libraries for when we get to Education, which will come sooner than we're ready, if we're not careful.

3. We have no port city connected to our capital. Sailing won't even help us yet or am I missing something here? We either connect a coastal city with roads, build Fp-City and connect that river, or road to Zara and sign OBs, right? On the other hand, we will barely get AH on time to start developing our two uber-cities, 2-fish and Marble. There's no time to lose. There's a gold medal waiting for those who do the CS-slingshot in 1675bc!

xpost

 

[LowtherCastle]

Some things nobody has yet commented on from the PPP:

- Do we want to OB with zara?

- OK if we switch EPs to just?

Mutineer, MM and worker actions are described in detail in the PPP.

One other thing I noticed: Currently, the slider is at 90%, can we afford to run 0% for one turn to be able to run 100% afterwards, in other words, does this not collide with our improvements or settling plans?

I'm reluctant to sign OBs with Zara for now. No trade route benefits yet anyway.

Your choice on EPs. I'd go 2-2, because I'd like to see Zara research full speed and I'd also like to keep seeing what he's researching. IW will be good and in one test game he also researched alpha.

On the research slider: what Mutineer said. We ABSOLUTELY want masonry in 2t. I haven't mentioned that before, but all worker-MM is based on that. Plus, we could get the SH gold any turn now. so for now, I'd just go max %, whatever it is.

 

[LowtherCastle]

switch to granary in capital, after 2 turns (massonry) fire specialists in favor of working plain forests.

Why not work keep working the 2sci? In my MM, I fire 1 sci on T+4, which gets the second settler built in 1t, and fire the other the next turn, when we 3pop the first settler.