Improvements

[Thalassicus]

One thing to consider is a mined hill gives 4 while a lumbermilled forest gives 1 3 until Steam Power, which is a relatively late tech. Production is scare in this game, so it leaves mines at an advantage for pure production purposes in the first half of the game. Forests can also be chopped for immediate production, and early-game gains amplify to late-game advantages exponentially, which means you have an opportunity cost involved in leaving them as lumbermills.

In addition, mines are used to hook up most strategic resources and gold/silver/gems, so the benefit extends beyond just the features these two improvements can be built on.

There's also the advantages described above of having the bonus at Engineering, increasing the value of that path on the tech tree compared to alternatives. I agree Dynamite is a logical place for a mine bonus from realism, but is already a very powerful tech many beeline to as it gives Artillery, and probably doesn't need a further buff. An alternative might be to make Steam Power boost production on both tiles, instead of only on lumbermills. Or, putting a mine bonus on Railroads, a traditional place for that.

 

[Trickster7135]

Or, putting a mine bonus on Railroads, a traditional place for that.

I think that's a fantastic idea, as it creates a lot of tension: do I want to add another production at the cost of two gold? For your military/wonder/space shuttle city, that would probably be the right choice.

 

[The Boz]

I don't build lumber mills, choppy time and trade post seems to work fine for me. Hills and GAs provide all the golden ages I need, and the 30 bonus production is MASSIVE in the first era.

 

[Freezer-TPF-]

@Freezer-TPF-
Thank you! Engineering was sort of a "gut feeling," it seems like a good place to have a production upgrade. Here's my reasoning:

Too early, and a change to mines might throw off the progression of the game too far from what the developers intended. Mines are a very core fundamental aspect of the game, so we've gotta be cautious when changing them.

Engineering unifies several different military techs on the bottom of the tech tree, making a game opener there an interesting choice now when stacked up alongside the Stonehenge/Great Library to Civil Service game opener (food upgrade, two eras, and the valuable Pikeman). It's not too high up either, so it's feasible to work to in early game. Lumbermills were already at Engineering too, and that tech is otherwise a bit empty, with just forts. Engineering is also in a chain of several other improvement upgrades: mine/chop, quarry/clear, bridges, lumbermills, road speed.

For example, one possible opener I'm testing: Animal Husbandry, then if no horses are within a reasonable settling range beeline to Iron Working. Otherwise, can expand or build archers/chariot archers to defend or conquer a nearby civ, and press up the tree for the Engineering production upgrade, then backtrack slightly to get Horsemen. This takes longer than a stonehenge/GL/civil service beeline, but the significant advantage is you're not restricted to 1 city like a typical build order for the builder path, so you can more flexibly adapt to your map situation and train military or expand. The change to Engineering also makes the archer/horses route an interesting choice when contrasted to an Iron Working opener.

I see what you're saying, and Engineering is a logical choice for a technology to boost mine yields. But looking at your mod, I'd say that having the +2 hammer lumbermills available at Engineering is already a nice reward for going for Engineering and a potential boost for your production in general (if you made the long-term decision to save your trees!).

However, the opening of the game still really suffers because of the limited +1 hammer production of mines (vs. the +2 hammers they gave in Civ4). IMHO that's where the hammer scarcity of Civ5 hurts the gameplay the most. Later in the game, you at least have some options (better farms, maritime city-states, etc) that boost your food and therefore enable you to work more hammer tiles to compensate for the weakness of mines. But in the beginning, you have no options other than chopping trees, which will then hurt you later on when you can't take advantage of lumbermills. Mines adding +1 hammer just aren't good enough.

Having a later tech give mines +1 is a good idea--dynamite or railroads are both logical and traditional choices. Dynamite probably makes more logical sense. Railroad makes traditional sense based on Civ4, although in this case I guess you would just have to research the tech to get the bonus or would you actually have to build a road AND a railroad on the mine tile to get the boost? That's a heavy maintenance cost for an extra hammer.

In short, my thinking is this:

* Mines should add +2 hammers to start (early production is just too poor otherwise)
* Lumbermills should add +2 hammers (reward for not chopping)
* Lumbermill +1 boost with Steam Power is fine as is
* Mines should get a +1 boost at Dynamite (makes more logical sense) or maybe Railroad (but if you have to actually build a railroad on the mine tile to get the boost, that may be too costly in maintenance and worker time)

 

[AlienFromBeyond]

My only problem with this is that it diminishes the usefulness of the Iroquois unique building. +1 hammer in Forests is huge in the default game, while with this mod I think I might prefer having the normal Workshop for the multiplier.

 

[Freezer-TPF-]

My only problem with this is that it diminishes the usefulness of the Iroquois unique building. +1 hammer in Forests is huge in the default game, while with this mod I think I might prefer having the normal Workshop for the multiplier.

I'm not sure about that. The Workshop bonus only applies to buildings while the Longhouse hammers boost all production, and the Longhouse is cheaper to build. Better lumbermills also make it more worthwhile to preserve forests, feeding into all of the Iroquois strengths.

 

[Thalassicus]

You've got a very good point Alien, I didn't think about it that way before.

Still, consider this. The UB is less useful, but forests overall are more useful. Since the Iroquois are favored for a forest-heavy start location, it seems this is an overall buff to the Iroquois - who were a little weak anyway. Their start location can now really be a production powerhouse.

@Freezer-TPF-
I'll think it over and see if I come up with any futher adjustments. I'd give a little more in-depth discussion, but rather exhausted from work today, and there's been requests for a tech-rate mod and some other things I'm going to prioritize for now. I'll think through your points in depth tomorrow, you do have valid logic behind them.

 

[bobbyboy29]

Playing with this mod (and a few of your others) and I love it.

One imbalancing effect that you may not have considered is that this makes gems, gold and silver by far more powerful resources. If you have a mint as well those become seriously super tiles. Not sure if this is a huge deal but they certainly make spices pale in comparison...

 

[Thalassicus]

True about that, I've been thinking about it a while and might adjust the yields for gems/gold/silver specifically to keep them at their standard values.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Thalassicus, I hope you don't mind, but I just fixed your link in post 14, as it was referring to this thread rather than the intended.

 

[Thalassicus]

Thank you PieceOfMind. When creating so many links it can be easy to miss-paste some here and there.

 

[Silver44Guy]

Could you make coasts worth 2 gold initially?

 

[Thalassicus]

I've been thinking about a buff to the Harbor that could provide that, see here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9728924#post9728924

I've been cautious making changes that would be in effect at turn 1, as changes made in the early game can have an exponential impact on the game as a whole.

-----

I'm including a new change in this mod, instead of the Buildings&Wonders one, because it directly affects plot improvements and ties in with the other improvement changes. PieceOfMind suggested a good name for the Granary would be "Grocer", and it actually makes a lot of sense. I've detailed the reasons in the first post, in the "Details" spoiler.

 

[lukeloh]

I've been thinking about a buff to the Harbor that could provide that, see here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9728924#post9728924

Thal, registered to thank you for your great work. Been using all your mods for the last week (after a few runs on vanilla) and the experience has definitely improved.

Been happy to lurk but note that you're planning on buffing Harbors. Agree that they are pretty lacking during the era which you get them but they really shine once you get Railroads (and when that happens I think they are actually too cheap).

Building a Harbor not only establishes a trade route to the capital city via water tiles (coast/ocean), but also adds an instant railroad connection. i.e. for 3 maintenance you get both the benefit of trade as well as 50% bonus production. Basically it's a free factory once you get Railroads, without requiring Coal.

I've been playing games where I mostly settle coastal tiles and only build road networks to inland cities. Come Railroads I get a huge manufacturing boost with no additional maintenance drawbacks. Even on Emperor/Immortal I find I can skip Factories for all but my military cities.

My concern is that buffing Harbors further will make them OP. They may be meh when we originally get them but the payback later is tremendous so I don't think they need a boost.

I suggest that instead of tweaking the Harbor improvement itself we make the Harbor tech a more interesting choice e.g. give an additional +1 movement to military naval units (i.e. triremes but no bonus for embarked units). But that's outside the scope of this mod. I think the Harbor improvement is strong as it is.

 

[Thalassicus]

Wow, I had no idea they provided the railroads connection! That dramatically changes their usefulness, and actually makes them very powerful... I would have never discovered that.

I'll include a change to the Harbor description in the "Unofficial Game Patch" mod so this is more clear ingame, and credit you. Thanks a ton for that tip!

 

[lukeloh]

No problem Thal. I'm not sure how you're going to amend the Harbor description but it might be a tad tricky. Due to poor documentation the way Harbor trade works is confusing for a lot of people.

e.g. The documentation does not clearly explain that for a functioning Harbor Trade Connection:

1a. There must also be a Harbor in the Capital; or
1b. There must exist a Harbor City on the same continent as the Capital and that also has a road or railroad connection to the Capital.
and
2. The game engine must be able to trace an unbroken (explored) line of water tiles (coast/ocean/lake) from the originating Harbor to the destination Harbor.
What this usually means is that both Harbors must be on the same body of water.

The corollary here is that a Harbor will only provide a railroad connection to the Capital if:

a. The Capital also has a Harbor, and is on the same body of water as your city.
or
b. The Capital has a railroad connection to a Harbor city on the same continent which is on the same body of water as your city.

So a simple sentence like "Harbors also provide railroad connections to the Capital if there is an existing trade connection" will break in scenario 1b. where there is only a road (but no railroad) connection.

I'm not sure how you're going to get all the nuances above into the description. Might be more trouble than it's worth

 

[Thalassicus]

How about this:

A trade route requires an unbroken chain of roads, railroads, or water hexes to the Capital. Trade routes can only cross from water to land (or vice-versa) at cities with a Harbor.

 

[lukeloh]

How about this:

A trade route requires an unbroken chain of roads, railroads, or water hexes to the Capital. Trade routes can only cross from water to land (or vice-versa) at cities with a Harbor.

Pretty good. To that I'd add:

"If you have researched the Railroads technology and there is an unbroken chain of railroads or water hexes to the Capital, the Harbor also provides a Railroad connection (+50% production)."

 

[Thalassicus]

So when combined:

A [ICON_CONNECTED] trade route can only cross between water and land at a Harbor. An unbroken [ICON_CONNECTED] route of roads, railroads, or water hexes to the [ICON_CAPITAL] Capital provides [ICON_GOLD], and +50% [ICON_PRODUCTION] with railroads or water hexes and the Railroads technology.

+25% [ICON_PRODUCTION] Production when building Naval Units.

City must be built on the coast.

There's something to the argument this could be put in a more detailed Civlopedia entry (the Harbor entry refers to a nonexistent "Water Routes" article) but this is such a critical piece of information I feel it should be presented up-front so the player cannot miss it.

 

[lukeloh]

My bad, I thought you were actually planning on changing the Civilopedia description, not the tooltip description. I agree that fixing the Civilopedia is required, but probably a separate effort.

Tooltip as proposed is potentially misleading - it implies that you get a separate 50% bonus from Railroads (i.e. if you have a Harbor and a land railroad connection you might get 100%). It also does not mention Railroads technology as a prerequisite so the implication is that you'd get the 50% bonus in an earlier era.

Perhaps:

"A [ICON_CONNECTED] Trade Route requires an unbroken chain of roads, railroads and/or water hexes from a city to the [ICON_CAPITAL] Capital. Trade Routes can only cross between water and land at a Harbor.

Provides [ICON_GOLD] with a [ICON_CONNECTED] connection.

With the Railroads technology researched, provides Railroad Connection (+50% [ICON_PRODUCTION]) if [ICON_CONNECTED] connection is through water and/or railroads."

Anyway, you get the idea. I don't know if there is a size limit to the tooltip but it's your mod so I leave the editorial decision to you