Foundation and Empire

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Why is bronze working a priority right now? We don't have any known rush targets and there seems to be plenty of land to grab peacefully. Wouldn't pottery or writing (for short and long-term tech potential) be stronger plays? With all this riverside I'd probably advocate pottery to set up some commerce income and fund LOTS of cities. Given very little chop priority in city 1 (capitol) or 2 BW can wait. We're more interested in getting as many improved special tiles as possible and IMO pottery helps us most with that via financing it somewhat.

The short answer? Because this is simpler. The goal is to have a simple plan, and execute it, as opposed to having a simple plan, and then optimizing the hell out of it.

Put a different way - the most common problem I see among the new players is chasing the shiny. The second most common problem is that they tend to sacrifice horizontal development by going vertical too aggressively. So the plan deliberately steers them away from that.

It's a similar question in kind to that of when to train the first settler. Absolutely, we could jump on that at turn 2... but is that lesson a top priority item for players who can't beat Noble reliably?


Admittedly, the simplification does make things seem rather scriptish, which I find a little bit unfortunate. The script is motivated by the plan, which gives me some comfort.

We'll see how it goes.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Perhaps it might be worthwhile editing your second post, to mention why you think that those four techs top the priority list?

I think you covered it fairly well, but I may. In my head, that sort of thing belongs in the guide more than the play thru(s); of course, things are somewhat confused by the fact that the guide isn't written yet.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The short answer? Because this is simpler.

Simplicity is only useful insofar as its ability to allow people to apply it in a variety of situations. This "always go BW" nonsense reminds me of that "stop expanding at 60% science" crap that Sisituil posted in his guide years back; it can do players more harm than help in a lot of situations and that starts showing up way before top difficulties.

What is the player goal in the early game? BW will not necessarily help with survival; its contribution to that with good hill tiles to work and no copper is minimal short-term. Even in a simplified format, people have to think.

Put a different way - the most common problem I see among the new players is chasing the shiny. The second most common problem is that they tend to sacrifice horizontal development by going vertical too aggressively. So the plan deliberately steers them away from that.

IMO this isn't quite the right way to put it. Obsolete "chases the shiny" and wins routinely on deity. Sacrificing horizontal expansion is indeed a common error; but in going BW before pottery you just might be doing so! Doing things like skipping pottery or writing early is what causes newbies to think they "go broke" with 4 cities any time they don't get a gold resource.

And one of the most common mistakes I see? Underprioritization of improved special tiles. It is VERY hard for mass nonstop chopping to keep up with a pig tile. If players set this as their central focus and then branch out into choices for survival and long-term VC plans as necessary they'll do a hell of a lot better than if they go BW before pottery, writing, or even other things all the time.

Put simply, even at this difficulty, you have to *think*. We can't hold their hands forever. The people unwilling or unable (more likely the former) to think a little about what changes can improve their play will stay noble or worse forever. I know some of those people. Those who ARE actively trying to improve will not benefit from canned openings, but rather from a frame of a goal that allows them to make choices that are closer to optimal.

The foundation of civ IV is not a script. That is the foundation of civ V. The foundation of civ IV is adapting play around basic goals. Assuming a rookie can't even attempt this is an insult to them. Sure, they might make mistakes, but it's a hell of a lot better than just doing AG/AH/BW every time and ignoring their terrain/opponents/etc.

It's a similar question in kind to that of when to train the first settler. Absolutely, we could jump on that at turn 2... but is that lesson a top priority item for players who can't beat Noble reliably?

I offered a pretty simple frame for training settlers; get more citizens on improved special tiles. When that's your focus, the tradeoffs are more obvious.

Edit: If the priority is "defending your civ", why are we teaching people to rely on the luck of the resource draw? Below monarch the barbs are spanked by warriors for a long time. Above that, spawn busting as a technique is valid, and so is archery if you can't do it reliably (not to mention archery carries less risk than going for strategic resources you may or may not see in time). There is literally no difficulty where warriors don't suffice a good % of the time, and none where archers won't suffice every time. If our focus is REALLY on the noble level, then teach them to defend with warriors, which they'll always have!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Simplicity is only useful insofar as its ability to allow people to apply it in a variety of situations. This "always go BW" nonsense reminds me of that "stop expanding at 60% science" crap that Sisituil posted in his guide years back; it can do players more harm than hurt in a lot of situations and that starts showing up way before top difficulties.

Agreed - the alternative, however, seems to be "play the map", which is completely useless.

I'll immediately concede that there's more than a little danger that "arbitrary" becomes a substitute for simple.

Even in a simplified format, people have to think.

Yes, but we can help a lot by putting the structure in place, illustrating what kinds of decisions are important, and how to think about deviations from a main line.

If I already knew precisely where I was going with this, I'd probably rattle off 10 games, and then present them in an order that emphasizes the main line, and calls out places where the situation justifies deviations from "the usual" play.

IMO this isn't quite the right way to put it. Obsolete "chases the shiny" and wins routinely on deity.

Obsolete... can beat Noble. "Once you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back on your shower shoes, and the press will think you're colorful!"

Those who ARE actively trying to improve will not benefit from canned openings, but rather from a frame of a goal that allows them to make choices that are closer to optimal.

The foundation of civ IV is not a script. That is the foundation of civ V. The foundation of civ IV is adapting play around basic goals.

I think we're actually fairly closely aligned here, thought the current presentation might not accurately reflect that. Which is one of the reasons why I'm trying to throw out games before crafting a guide.

Assuming a rookie can't even attempt this is an insult to them. Sure, they might make mistakes, but it's a hell of a lot better than just doing AG/AH/BW every time and ignoring their terrain/opponents/etc.

This bit, we disagree on. You don't teach a new player chess strategy by asking them to make the right choice of MCO. You tell them e4, and concentrate their attention on things that matter (not hanging pieces, king safety, etc).

I don't even feel a little bit guilty about encouraging players to learn the Spanish.

I offered a pretty simple frame for training settlers; get more citizens on improved special tiles. When that's your focus, the tradeoffs are more obvious.

There are really three "natural" choices, I think - keying off of improved specials (T20-25), keying off of tech (T30), keying off of the happy cap (T35). I picked the middle one as the main line on the grounds that (a) it gives time to see what the neighborhood looks like (b) "can we get on with it already?" and (c) it feels normal to me.

I'm not at all sure I understand yet what kind of guidance to offer on fast settler tracks, so I'm deferring that idea for the moment (this map doesn't particularly call for it, so I'm leaving that off).

That said, I think that this is one of the areas where we actually agree - mostly. There's a basic decision about the initial settler to be considered at the T15 checkpoint.


That said, well reasoned objections are one of my best chances for actually getting this thing to work, so please keep them coming.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmm, if you're willing to stack objectives we can get more done, but not a lot more is appropriate thus far in this game. At this point options are still small; improved special tiles, techs that let you do that, and basic survival are all we can do until we establish contact or at least explore more.

 

[learner gamer]

Apologies both but I wrote this out whilst you guys were posting - so some has been superseded by your subsequent posts.

Put a different way - the most common problem I see among the new players is chasing the shiny.

At the risk of going off topic and offending anyone (which is not my intention at all ), I’d say that the tendency to build wonders is actually a symptom of the real problem - which I understand that your thread is designed to address: a failure to plan, to ask what the gamer hopes to achieve by performing their next action and how that fits in with their plan to win. Wonders often get built IMHO simply because they’re available, without much thought as to (i) how they fit in with the noble level gamer's plan to win (often because there’s no plan) and (ii) the (opportunity) cost of building them.


@TMIT: At the outset, let me say that you’re a far better player than me, so feel free to take the following with a heavy pinch of salt.

FWIW, I don’t see VoU’s opening as a “canned opening” which is stressing “always BW.” For my money, VoU’s suggesting a "simple" opening that rests on three basic priorities:

(i) growing your capital / working tiles in the BFC
(ii) defending your civ; and
(iii) funding the expansion

in which (ii) and (iii) are interchangeable, depending on the map. (Incidentally VoU, this is precisely why I’ll mention again that I think your thread would really benefit from even a very brief explanation re: your tech priorities at the start of the game, so players can understand your thought process.) I must admit that I read VoU’s earlier point re: the potential for future games as perhaps indicating that future map(s) could see VoU vary his opening, or even change it completely, perhaps by introducing a rush-able neighbour. As you quite correctly point out: the beauty of Civ 4 is that the gamer needs to think, to plan – and provided that the noble gamer executes their plan reasonably well, the game’s so well balanced IMHO that pursuing any number of well reasoned approaches gives them a decent shot at victory.

To my mind however, that last sentence is key here. You see, I’d have no problem if a noble level gamer outlined a tech path of AH > mining > BW given that start, assuming that the tech path was reached because they’d decided on pursuing priorities (i) – (iii) outlined above, and planned to research TW > pottery afterwards to address the map’s lack of commerce. After all, given noble level tech costs, there’ll still be plenty of time IMHO to tech TW > pottery before the economy crashes.

Now admittedly, teching TW > pottery before BW might well be optimal here, in particular on the higher levels with their greater tech costs. However, IMHO, the key here for the noble level player is that BW > TW > pottery is perfectly justifiable (provided it is part of a plan) and very unlikely to be game breaking at this level.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

FWIW, I don’t see VoU’s opening as a “canned opening” which is stressing “always BW.” For my money, VoU’s suggesting a "simple" opening that rests on three basic priorities:

(i) growing your capital / working tiles in the BFC
(ii) defending your civ; and
(iii) funding the expansion

One way to analyze the very early game is to identify the problems that need to be solved. I normally find that they need to be addressed in roughly this order

• Food
• Production
• Defense
• Land
• Research

I generally find that this list fits well with a "normal" opening tech sequence.

Food: Agriculture, Animal Husbandry [Fishing, Hunting]
Production: Mining, Bronze Working [Hunting]
Defense: Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working
Land: Mysticism Writing (think "Culture")
Research: Pottery Writing

I've tried to extend beyond that point, but my experience is that from this point on the problems fork.


Put another way - the problems come from the map. I advocate that struggling players first get comfortable on the basic land based maps, with normalized starts. This introduces a bias that favors addressing the initial problems in a (nearly) fixed order. But once you start getting out of the immediate neighborhood, there's a lot more variation in the priority of the problems to be solved.

 

[learner gamer]

@VoU: Bravo! Funnily enough, that’s something I’ve mentioned before too – that one of the things that separates the great players (of which I am not one) from the rest is their ability to correctly identify the strengths and weaknesses of a map - and plan and play accordingly. If you are going to produce some kind of guide, I’d humbly submit that something like the above post should be included to help explain why you often choose to prioritise four techs at the beginning of the game - presumably because they best help to meet the need for food, production and defense, map depending of course.

Incidentally, I agree with the point you make re: how the number of problems that need to be solved increases as you explore and expand. IMHO, this is precisely why it also pays to keep a plan at game’s start particularly streamlined.

Look forward to seeing the next segment.

 

[Inspector Dex]

I hesitate to post this because

a) I don't have much of anything to add to the discussion at the moment; and
b) I don't like to break up the flow of great discussion above

but I wanted to acknowledge that for a player like myself, this thread is exactly what I need to see to improve my game.

So, to keep things short, thanks VoU and keep going. I'm sure myself and others are frequently refreshing the forum page to see the next response.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

I generally find that this list fits well with a "normal" opening tech sequence.

Food: Agriculture, Animal Husbandry [Fishing, Hunting]
Production: Mining, Bronze Working [Hunting]
Defense: Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working
Land: Mysticism Writing (think "Culture")
Research: Pottery Writing

I think it's a little problematic that The Wheel doesn't show up anywhere here. While it doesn't fit neatly into any one of these categories, it is an important early tech for a couple reasons, and one often neglected especially by newer players (maybe because it doesn't fit neatly into any one of these categories.)

Defense: unless you get lucky with river or settle on the resource, Horse/Copper won't do you any good without TW

Land: Pre-roading to city sites allows settlers to get there faster, hence grabbing more land.

Research: Connecting cities and roading to neighbors early helps keep your slider higher for a longer period of time.

I realize you're just trying to give rules of thumb, and in most situations a new player won't go too far wrong by going BW before TW, but I think these points are at least worth considering, even for new players.

I think the idea behind this thread is great, and don't see the rough plan as canned, but it might be worth stressing a little more how you may need to juggle priorities based on the map. (For instance, if there had been Horses to hook up, TW before BW would be an obvious play; but a new player might not realize that.) Surely even a new player should be able to process that thought.

 

[Benginal]

I love a good discussion on pedagogy. It's an extremely relevant topic today that I don't feel gets nearly enough attention in academia. Perhaps because the bulk of faculty aren't particularly good teachers?

Here's an article that might be of interest: A Better Way to Teach Math.

The idea is that too much of teaching today relies on students making discoveries for themselves and learning by being presented with a problem and figuring it out. Most human brains don't work that way. They need to develop a foundation upon which to build and that foundation is what VoU is attempting to provide.



@Xpl. Did you miss the point? Settle in place. There's very likely corn or pigs on the grassland tiles to your south. And also very likely one of copper/horse/iron also in the BFC if you settle there.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I think it's a little problematic that The Wheel doesn't show up anywhere here. While it doesn't fit neatly into any one of these categories, it is an important early tech for a couple reasons, and one often neglected especially by newer players (maybe because it doesn't fit neatly into any one of these categories.)

(a) It's required for Pottery :wink:
(b) It's important without being particularly urgent.

It's a war tech, true. And it's a commerce tech. And a happy tech, and a health tech. It's a floor wax and a dessert topping, and you can dry yourself off with it if it still seems to be clean enough.

That said - it's a worker tech, and workers often have more useful things to be doing than cutting roads.

 

[ABCDPuppies]

(b) It's important without being particularly urgent.

It might not be "urgent", but my point is that in a fair number of situations it's more important than (one of) AH or BW. For instance

1) Livestock to improve -> tech AH; if Horses show up, TW is often more important than BW.

2) No livestock in the area -> tech BW; if copper shows up, TW is usually more important than AH.

So I think it's just not quite right to place BW and AH on a pedestal together. In many games you will just need one early, and will need TW etc before the other.

 

[coanda]

That said - it's a worker tech, and workers often have more useful things to be doing than cutting roads.

I think over-spamming roads too early may be one of the top-three mistakes I've noticed by players asking for Noble advice. "Don't get The Wheel" may go just a bit overkill in trying to break players of that habit though.

 

[CommonKnowledge]

As someone who still finds Prince a bit dicey this is a great thread. One thing I've been wondering though is what the opinion is on building Stonehenge at this stage? Normally I go for a worker first, explore the area, tech whatever benefits me the most and then grab Stonehenge for border pops. However I'm wondering if my hindered growth outweighs the benefits of constant culture growth.

 

[Jester Fool]

One thing I've been wondering though is what the opinion is on building Stonehenge at this stage? Normally I go for a worker first, explore the area, tech whatever benefits me the most and then grab Stonehenge for border pops. However I'm wondering if my hindered growth outweighs the benefits of constant culture growth.

Stonehenge is normally not worth building BUT there are circumstances where it makes sense e.g. stone hooked up/Industrious leader/aggressive blocking strategy etc. On higher levels, Stonehenge is absolutely worthless and IF you try to build Wonders, it would always be The Oracle, GLH or something else that justifies the hammers expended.

 

[ahcos]

Just try to not build any wonders AT ALL until you're certain about when and how to use them. They can make your game, but they can break it aswell. Don't get used to them, especially on higher difficulties you might get beaten to them.

 

[MarigoldRan]

As Washington, you're not Creative. This is mildly important for initial city placement. For example, you wouldn't be able to use the pig, the fish AND the wheat until monuments (or libraries) are up. For that reason I'd take the wheat-gold city, since early-early game it's equivalent to the pig-wheat-fish city. Furthermore, if you don't have fishing....

But this is a complicated point. So....

Also, explain why Bronze Working and food is so important.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

T28 - Bronze Working comes in, and its time to start looking toward the next tech segment. In addition, this is roughly the time that (a) the worker can finish a third tile improvement (b) the city grows to size 4 (c) the city produces a third warrior.

In other words, this is about time to get on with it and claim some more land.

Important changes to the map - Mansa has appeared in the north. We've found horses. Copper has popped in the fat cross, and is connected to the capital by the river.

With lots of open space on the map means we should be able to expand peacefully before we need to engage. In tighter confines, with closer neighbors that make for juicier targets, we might reconsider.

General guidelines on dot mapping: every city gets at least one good food resource. Every good food resource feeds at least once city. Maximize rivers. Seaports usually want to minimize their ocean tiles, land locked cities want no coastal tiles at all.

You can see from the map above that I didn't solve the problem of the northern pigs. I eventually threw a seaport to the east of them, but later reached the conclusion that TMIT did right away - chopping the floods into two cities was a stronger play.

The capital can't do all of the work on its own - we need the new cities to come on line quickly to help train and defend more settlers. So in the very early going, look for more food and hammers to support an initial expansion.

Other considerations
Good inner ring tiles over good outer ring tiles
Contested locations over secured locations
When in doubt, settle toward your next target.

With this in mind, and in the spirit of "More than my fair share of land", my initial target is the corn and horse city to the north.

Tech order will typically be some ordering of

• Mysticism
• The Wheel
• Pottery
• Writing

The warriors I've trained are primarily taking up station to ensure that settlers can travel safely to my planned dots. Along the way, the patch a few holes in the map, to give me time to make corrections.

As stronger units become available for defense, these units will return to the cities as military police.

Next checkpoint: T45

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As someone who still finds Prince a bit dicey this is a great thread. One thing I've been wondering though is what the opinion is on building Stonehenge at this stage?

Don't?


That's the glib answer. More seriously, and in keeping with the theme - the skill of judging when to build wonders contributes less to winning than other skills, so to keep things simple, the default program that's most likely to be right should be used.

And that default program is certainly "don't".


Once you take off the training wheels.... I tend to think of Stonehenge as "is it worth giving up a city to land this wonder?" There certainly appears to be enough potential city locations to pay off the border pops, there's no particular urgency for military action, if we lose one of those northern locations we'd still be in OK shape.

On the negative side - my favorite choice, when it can be done, is to put the 'henge in my second city, for the faster border pop there. Depends on finding the right sort of wonder pump in a convenient location, and we don't have that. Chopping trees is a big help in the race, and we don't really have them to spare. The basic plan we're operating under doesn't really have a religious component....

A different plan certainly might "I'm going to use the 'enge for lotsa border pops, and an early Code of Laws to cut down on costs; I'll use the Prophet to construct the Confucian shrine..."), that all seems to hold together.

I don't find the idea too compelling without more lumber. But it's not wrong - so long as you remember to stop building it when you are done (whee - shiny shiny shiny war horns! darn)