An Ancient India Scenario

Hey the map's looking great! I can already imagine all sorts of contests and building happening on it!

Ram: Pre-placed cities. Everyone starts with one except for Macedonia who should have two (or three). Play balance can be assisted by giving some civs a settler at start and others none. We have three civs in South India exclusive of Ceylon.
I was thinking that Nanda were already well established by the start date of the scenario. Might be an idea to give them a few pre-placed too.

I think that they will all fit comfortably on the map. By the way, what size map is Hegemon?
It's 180x180. A bit big really, but needed for that scenario. Had to do loads of different things to get turn times down, including cropping it. Not sure what size it is in the upgrade that I will release shortly.

When I do release the upgrade you'll see that it's quite quite different now. There are many new features in it which can be tailored for this scenario:

- Tribal Resources
- Tribute Victory (both given to Gods and received as tax)
- Leagues (like the Delian League or Peloponnesian League)

I'll let you imagine how those function in "Hegemon" and how they could work in this.
 
Post on Ancient Indian wonders


And on wootz / monsoon steel - links in my long-ago post are now dead, so here are some if anyone wants to know more about ancient steel production, especially the wind powered foundries in Sri Lanka:
* "Scholars had assumed that the wind, with its inconstant gusts, could never keep a fire hot enough to make iron from iron ore, let alone make iron combine with the carbon in charcoal to produce steel. But Juleff found otherwise when she smelted iron herself on a Sri Lankan hillside in a replica of the ancient furnaces. ... Juleff’s furnace could easily maintain a constant temperature of 2,600 degrees Fahrenheit." That's comparable to Industrial Era blast furnaces.

While the majority of the 40+ excavated sites were from the mid to late 1st millennium AD, at least one was in use from 300 BCE. IMHO it's probable that the earlier use was more extensive than one site. Sites with the best windage, etc. would see sustained use so that later structures & materials have obscured or obliterated evidence of earlier use.
 
Ram: Thanks for the ideas. I will take them under advisement and let them percolate.

Blue: More great info!

All: Just to get in the mood, I am screening Aŝoka (2001) starring Shah Rukh Khan and Kareena Kapoor (hubba hubba). Not much in the way of battles, Buddhism, or historical accuracy (it's mostly love story) but a great Bollywood costumer romp none the less.
 
I have to say Bollywood films bore the pants off me. Seen one seen 'em all. Nevertheless, I've still made the mistake of seeing both those. Though Lagaan did have a slightly different slant. If you'd like to try some quality Indian cinema I'd like to recommend the films of Satyajit Ray. Now he's a master.

Anyways, how are things coming along 7ronin? Want to bounce around the biq a bit? I presume we can start plotting all the rules into the biq from Blue and just import them into the completed map, no? I'm fairly tied up this week with work but I'd be happy to start doing that with you if you'd like. Or just look at it and give comments.
 
I have to say Bollywood films bore the pants off me. Seen one seen 'em all.
I agree with you to a degree. But the same thing could be said for what's considered "horror" these days. I long for the days of Hitchcock. In the same way there are a few Bollys that I have enjoyed a lot. I wish I could remember the name of the 1st I ever saw. I had just moved to NYC & was crazy happy going to as many foreign films as I could. Blew my mind that a couple could sing and dance their way from the wedding to the next morning & have a baby without ever kissing. :lol: I think I liked it because it reminded me of going to the drive-in as a kid. Pretty much every Bolly has the goofy cartoon, the romance, the action, the family drama, not to mention the dancing - even if it's not a hot dog and a tub of popcorn. Carries on the tradition of traveling actors who put on a performance that lasts all night & has something to entertain everyone in the village.
If you'd like to try some quality Indian cinema I'd like to recommend the films of Satyajit Ray. Now he's a master.
Agreed. 1st learned of him from listening to music Ravi Shankar wrote for Pather Panchali.


I presume we can start plotting all the rules into the biq from Blue and just import them into the completed map, no?
Yes. Use any map you like for testing purposes. Then when the real map is finished just import the rules. Then place starting locations, units & resources.

The import is straightforward. I've done it many times just to play a favorite scenario on a different map.
 
Ray is indeed a world class director. Have either of you seen Shakespeare Wallah or Courtesans of Bombay?

I'm ready to start fooling around with the rules at the end of the week.
 
PS. I hope we're going to get a proper Ghats section and Deccan plateau.
The suggestion was made to include resource markers for major geographical features as in Hegemon & TAM - don't remember if it was here or in a pm. Found a map that's a start. Would need to add major rivers & a few other things - like Mt. Kailas.

asokaindiageofeatures.jpg
 
Perfect! With the rivers it will be just the right amount.

Did you see Stico's Troy city? Incredible work! We need to get him onboard. Also, somebody needs to explain the monthly awards to him if he doesn't already know.
 
Map WIP
I prefer showing a lot of WIPs to flying solo. At the same time it's important to keep discussion strictly to the current state of the map. I pay close attention to comments by anyone I know has a track record of good map/scenario design. This makes posting WIPs more fruitful than PMs to those directly involved in the project.

Think of this as first sketch. Not even a rough draft. At this stage it's gimp > bmptobic > maptweaker > editor. So we're talking major geographic features for now. Details get progressively refined as more terrain is added. This method has become pretty streamlined for me. Tile by tile adjustments don't even come it to it until changes are easier to do in the editor than with the 4 utility cycle.

Status
  • Coast is standing in for all water terrains
  • Hills are standing in for mountains as well
  • plains are standing in for all other terrains

What To Ignore (no comments, please)
  • exact coast lines - straight edges or zig-zags will be dealt with later
  • proximity of ranges to coast
  • minor valleys or lack thereof (less than 5x5 tiles, approx). Side valleys, canyons, ravines, wadis, etc. are not done yet. They will come as other terrain types are added.
  • basically any other detail that's less than 3x3 tiles - same goes for playability issues

What To Comment On
  • Missing Ranges
  • Misplaced Ranges
  • Ranges that are Too Extensive
  • Missing or Mislocated Islands
  • Badly Skewed Coastlines
  • Anything Else On The Same Scale of Geography

Might want to use the thumbnail for adding visual notes in your posts

asokav2review.th.jpg


Asoka Map v. 0.2
asokav2review.jpg




The zip includes a tiff of the screenshot & the biq
 

Attachments

The map is wonderful! I think the Aravalli, Vindhaya, and Satpuras mountains may need better definition. Same with the Khashi Hills (see your post #108?[small map]).

The only problem I can see is that the Bramaputra River basin (north eastern Bangladesh, south of Bhutan) seems to be missing.

Missing Ranges-None
Misplaced Ranges-None that I can determine
Ranges that are Too Extensive-see comment above
Missing or Mislocated Islands-none
Badly Skewed Coastlines-none
Anything Else On The Same Scale of Geography-nothing
 
With your parameters for us to comment, there isn't much to say. You've got the major geographical features in the right places. Good job!!

However, your parameters about us not commenting on 3x3 areas of tiles need to be ignored to some extent to point out one major geographical feature that could be brought out more: The Deccan Plateau.

The Western Ghats should be more like a continuous 'wall' really - yes roughly 3 tiles wide on that map, more or less - with lush flat land between 'the wall' and the sea. There should be:

(a) A continous range of mountains/hills running all the way down that coast to make up the Western Ghats and
(b) Some room for flat land, be it grassland or whatever, between those mountains and the sea. You've kind of got this going on with the Eastern Ghats but not the Western.

Without either of these two items above, you don't really have a proper Western Ghats range and, without that, you don't have a Deccan Plateau.


I would also say, though this is smaller scale detail:

- The thinnest parts of the Himalayas, where they fall down to meet the Gangetic Plain, are too thin.

- There's a bit too much hill and mountain going on in the north eastern corner. The line between the Himalayas and the Gangetic plain should really keep extending east a bit more, breaking into those mountain/hill tiles you've currently got. A finger of flatter land into them, as it were.
 
Summary of Ancient Indian Economic Activity:

Goods traded:

cloth: import/export
coin: import
dye: export
glass: import
incense: import/export
ivory: export
metal: import/export
precious stones: export
rice/wheat: export
silk: import (only available from China)
slaves: export
spices: import (only available from China and Spice Islands)
timber (sandalwood, teak, ebony): export
tortoise shell: export
weapons: export?
wine: import

China Trade:
One way only: cloth, silk and spice.

Spice Islands Trade:
One way only: spice

Arabia and Egypt (Europe) Trade:
Both ways; India a net exporter
 
A good list there Mr Ronin.

But India importing spice? That doesn't sound right. There should be a few different types of spices which the guys in the south are sitting on: Cinnamon, Pepper, Cardamon etc.

Remember dear Blue Monkey's Wootz iron and the importance of iron in the region and period in general. It'd be good to have some different kinds of metals. For interest, accuracy and for gameplay.

What about things like crafted goods or skilled workers? I think those would make for some good and interesting inclusions in a resource list. Crafted marble, gold, pottery, brass etc. Skilled carvers, Weavers and so on. They can be used to make some of the culture buildings.

And maybe it'd be interesting to get some religious and poetry resources in there, like Poets, Mystics, Vedic Priests etc. Maybe these can come as units, but having them as resources could be a good way of localising things. Or else you can do this via units that are unique to certain civs. Like Buddhist Monks up in the north, Tamil Poets in the south and so on. Gotta have this stuff in there some way or other!
 
I think the Aravalli, Vindhaya, and Satpuras mountains may need better definition. Same with the Khashi Hills (see your post #108?[small map]).

The only problem I can see is that the Bramaputra River basin (north eastern Bangladesh, south of Bhutan) seems to be missing.
... one major geographical feature that could be brought out more: The Deccan Plateau.

The Western Ghats should be more like a continuous 'wall' really - yes roughly 3 tiles wide on that map, more or less - with lush flat land between 'the wall' and the sea. There should be:

(a) A continous range of mountains/hills running all the way down that coast to make up the Western Ghats and
(b) Some room for flat land, be it grassland or whatever, between those mountains and the sea. You've kind of got this going on with the Eastern Ghats but not the Western.

...
- The thinnest parts of the Himalayas, where they fall down to meet the Gangetic Plain, are too thin.

- There's a bit too much hill and mountain going on in the north eastern corner. The line between the Himalayas and the Gangetic plain should really keep extending east a bit more, breaking into those mountain/hill tiles you've currently got. A finger of flatter land into them, as it were.
All of these comments are right on point and very helpful at this stage. I've requoted them to help make my to-do list.

However, your parameters about us not commenting on 3x3 areas of tiles need to be ignored to some extent
That is primarily meant for the kibitzers, punters & patzers. The two of you have pretty free rein. Hopefully we don't fall into the "do this/that comes later" vicious circle. Probably no chance based on the clarity comments by both of you.

The only miscommunication so far is that the request to ignore proximity of ranges to the coast was most specifically about the Western Ghats. Good looking out - the whole range will need to be shifted a bit to the East. A lot of that will happen as the other terrains like grassland are added in. Several other important points about the W. Ghats that I need to bear in mind came from your spotting that. And the whole exchange is probably serendipitously to the benefit of any lurkers who may not be familiar with the geography.

All the ranges will become better defined as the actual mountains are placed. Hills get shifted around, eliminated & added as needed to make authentic, aesthetic & game-play sense. Part of that last criteria is placement of passes - balancing scenario needs vs. physical geography. Leaving the gaps in the Ghats at this stage lets me see where to retain small passes or hilly areas as the mountains are added & foothills spread out. The present gaps will get closed up. The refining of hills as mountains are added will be done most extensively in the Himalayas. The primary concern on this first pass was to sketch in the basic ridge line. The Himalayas as previewed are mostly peaks - subsidiary ranges & foothills on the Indian side are not even there. Good eyes. As mapwork progresses we'll have to balance the weight of the Himalayas against the need to make room for the civs & provide some routes through the otherwise impassable regions.

Because of the slight distortions to the Himalayas it's difficult to work exactly from reference maps in the NE part of the biq. This first sketch was painted based on the references. When the Brahmaputra, Ganges & tributaries are placed there will be a lot of adjustments in that area. Goes for side valleys as well as the main watershed. You'll see that at the stage where the grassland gets added.

I especially appreciate the inclusion of specifically named features in your comments. Makes it easy to refer back to maps or do some on-line research.



A short description of the map design pipeline that works for me may aid understanding why certain types of comments are solicited at specific stages. It will also explain why there are details like a lot more hills in some places that should be flatter. Everyone feel free to skip the next post if not interested. The map under development is used as an example but there's no direct discussion of it as part of the specific scenario.
 
Hopefully this will explain my current way of making maps. Especially why certain questions are relevant at specific stages. The most important thing to understand about this way of working is that it is a process of gradual refinement. There are multiple passes to make the resulting map closer & closer to the ideal. Making a map from actual geography is the most painstaking because of prior expectations and the facility of detailed critique that is not present with a non-Earth map.

There are two types of layers. The “painted” layers - when assembled - make the game map. The reference layers are whatever source maps are relevant to the design. The two key layers are Plains which is the assembly base and Satellite which is the image used in initial discussions and is the standard that all other reference layers must match.


Order of the Layers
image: Layers In Map Working File
Spoiler :
asokamapprocess.jpg
The reference layers stay below the painted layers and are used as needed, for example relief references are used when painting the hills & mountain layers. The only exception is Palette. This stays on top for easy access to pick colors that match the Bmptobic requirements - although it’s frequently made invisible so the other layer s are easy to see.

Plains is used as the base for a couple of reasons. It is often used partially transparent. While painting on a third layer a reference layer can be viewed relative to the coastlines & overall game map. Grass could serve the same purpose, but the color makes the reference layers more difficult to read. Also, Grass is painted in part to guide placement of waterways & forests. If it were the base it could not be removed from view to compare those layers with the references.

Painted layers are ordered so that when the image is flattened details and relationships between various terrains are as nearly as possible ideal for use by the various mapmaking utilities. For example Mountains is painted as more precise details relative to the broader pattern of the hills. With that layer higher in the stack Hills will not obscure the more carefully placed mountains.

Forest including jungles and marshes are painted as smaller areas with reference to Grass. Bmptobic uses separate colors for the various vegetation types- there is enough contrast to normally allow them to share a layer. A second forest layer can be added above Plains & below Grass as needed for plains forest. Tundra can either be a separate layer or part of another depending on how extensive and how precise its boundaries need to be. As with mountains & hills the order of flora layers ensures proper extent & placement.


Mechanics of the Process
image: Converting An Image To A Map (BIQ)
Spoiler :
maptransform.gif

  • Assemble the working file. Reference layers may need to be realigned / scaled/ distorted to match the key layers.
  • Paint by layers. Flatten an image with just the painted layers.
  • Convert to a bitmap with the proper index. Scale and add water borders as needed so that the image matches the requirements of Bmptobic.
  • Convert to map by using Bmptobic.
  • Open bic in Map Tweaker & crop unneeded area so map has desired dimensions.
  • Open in Firaxis editor. The terrain will appear blocky & cut off. Change one tile & the coastlines and other terrain graphics return to normal.
  • Edit terrain as needed.
  • Repeat process until working at a level of detail where only the editor is needed.

A look at the second image reveals why a lot of refining is needed in the editor. The painted image gets reduced to a bitmap wherein one pixel equals one tile. The particular terrain graphics set can make a huge difference in how pleasing the map is. This is especially true for coastlines and with the shape of isolated features like islands.


Painting Process - The Creative Side
  • Plains and a rough version of Water are created by picking color areas from Satellite. They are copied & pasted as separate new layers, then filled with the appropriate color. At this point images may be posted for brief discussion of map size, coastline, etc.
  • Water is the top painted layer because it is where the coastlines & inland water bodies are done in detail. At each phase all other layers can be painted without having to worry about “coloring inside the lines”. When the image is flattened Water “crops” any sloppiness.
  • Hills then Mountains are painted. A wip is posted somewhere within this stage. After discussion a second pass is made which will be key in determining how all the other layers are painted.
  • Grass is painted. Any available climate & meteorological references now come into play. The rain-shadow effect has a lot to do with placement. Grass is also painted as a rough guide to rivers/floodplains and forested areas. Part of this grassland may later become other terrain types. Rain-shadows, rivers and general lines of elevated ranges also help define transitions between Desert & Plains.
  • At this stage all painted areas are very approximate & many adjustments will need to be made in future stages. At the same time this is a good point to take a look at map coverage of the various terrains and the playability of key strategic areas. This is the first time that it is worth a critical look at the shape of coastlines. Before this point terrain variety was insufficient to compare what is needed versus what is present. A wip is posted for discussion about this layer of details.
  • Forests, including other flora are added next. At the same time the other layers are adjusted and refined. Another wip is posted & discussed.
  • More refinements and adjustments of the painted layers takes place. Terrains which are of very limited extent - such as marshes - are now added. This is probably the last stage at which anything is painted. Tile by tile refinement begins. The majority of work now takes place in the editor (no more painting & utilities). Rivers get placed. LM terrains are added. WIPs are posted as needed until the map is satisfactory.



It’s a lot more complex to explain than it is to do. The cumbersome work of painting tile by tile or in diamond shaped blocks that the Firaxis editor requires is avoided. This is especially tedious when laying out the coastline. References are directly underneath the painting layer, rather than needing to look back and forth. Changes to one type of terrain don’t accidentally affect another because they remain on separate layers. The map can be quickly resized until well into the process. These advantages mean that maps - even oddly shaped maps - can be created and refined in a relatively streamlined fashion. Saves a lot of time once you've got the routine down.
 
Resources:

I'll search through the maps I've got & post some that show natural resources & trade flows.

China gave silk, but India gave us cotton. I don't know an Indian term for it but techniques like Batik were extensively used in India of the period. Cotton + dye ...

The comment on a variety of metals is important. Steel is an alloy - wootz may need more than one resource. And gold could be considered a strategic resource - required for many religious improvements. A lot of the golden statues got that way from people adding a bit of gold leaf as part of their puja.

"Spiritual" resources
Given the extent of pilgrimage sites & the importance of literally following in the avatars footsteps there ought to be some kind of "must be in city radius" sacred site resource. More than Buddha sat under a tree. The Epics refer to a lot of special weapons and secret techniques being gained through extended fasting & meditation. So have another resource that allows an improvement auto-producing some unit.

"Pipal tree" resource? Other possibilities: naturally occurring virgals or naga stones. There are the shivalinga shaped by rivers. The various types are usually associated with particular rivers giving them specific potencies. Banalinga from the Narmada river are one example. There are shilas and shankhs as well. Even the water itself can be a resource. I've read accounts of princes bringing water from several sacred rivers to annoint themselves as kings. Some kind of sacred pool resource located along the appropriate rivers could become strategically important.

Some of the things I mentioned are only found in certain very limited parts of the subcontinent. Remember that multiple resources can appear at a single tech. Location on the map can then determine what is buildable. No need for flag or zero-era tech juggling.

Flip around the localization of resources. Some resource related to Krishna in the North & one related to Rama in the South could both be needed for a pilgrimage wonder. Could also make so that one of the needed resources is available in many places - shivalinga - but the other is nearly unique - Mt. Kailas.

That last reminds me that another potential resource is basalt/granite caves which were frequently carved into monolithic temples (chaitya) and monasteries (viharas). The Barabar cave temples were carved during the period of this scenario. Ajanta, Ellora, Badami, Mahaballipuram, etc. are other examples from various eras. Could be a limited resource (one per region) needed for a small wonder.
 
Blue: You are certainly making a lot of progress. I noticed the lack of low lying coastal areas on the seaward side of the Ghats also but chose not to say anything because of your list of parameters. I'll be more willing to wade in in the future.

Ram: I've no idea why my source did not include spice. We of course are free to export as many different spices as we wish. I imagine that "coin" was not really an import but was taken in payment for exports. Roman coins from as early as the republic have been found in India. I think I mentioned pottery and elephants in one of my earlier ramblings. Interesting ideas about "people" as resources. I think religion may be on of the trickiest things we may have to deal with in this scenario.

Both: Santa Ana winds here this evening (whoosh). Does India have the Sirocco?
 
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