Ask A Red: The IVth International

[Ajidica]

How would life work in a communist society for, say, an IT person? Even in a communist society we would surely need IT people unless you guys are going to get rid of computers or communism somehow makes all technology work perfectly.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

How would life work in a communist society for, say, an IT person? Even in a communist society we would surely need IT people unless you guys are going to get rid of computers or communism somehow makes all technology work perfectly.

See my above post quoting Stalin: no distinctions between mental and manual labor -- it will all be needed and we are talking about elevating all of society -- not the dumbing-down of society as described by Kurt Vonnegut in Harrison Bergeron. Of course, some things will take precedence over fixing our XBoxes, but because computers are integral to power generation and distribution, transportation, et al, IT workers will find a happier, more fruitful life under communism -- especially if you fix my Firefox Bug that downloads multiple empty files for no reason.

NB: when I was in Alaska, one of my vols was a brilliant IT guy who shared a loft with three other guys above where he worked. Communism will make sure you have better living arrangements.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

With living standards rising everywhere, especially among "commoners", what do you think the probability of the "re-arrival" of communism is? What we saw happen in Russian Empire was brought on by disaster and suffering, something the first world knows little about today.

How would international economic relations work? Could communist countries compete with cold-hearted capitalists? While the Soviet Union was a mess in the first place, it did not compete.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

With living standards rising everywhere, especially among "commoners", what do you think the probability of the "re-arrival" of communism is? What we saw happen in Russian Empire was brought on by disaster and suffering, something the first world knows little about today.

The standard of living for the bottom 99% is not rising, except in China. In the United States, the poverty rates and the number of people the government says is poor, has been steadily increasing since 2000, when the official rate had been 11.3%

See This Report from the National Poverty Center of University of Michigan

And while the NPC stats are helpful, I work with low-income working people daily and I have yet to meet a farm worker on his own, who clears $11, 000 a year -- in a multi-billion dollar industry, mind you. In San Joaquin county, alone, 13,000 farm workers produce $1.5 billion a year in farm products. That amounts to each farm worker producing $115,000 a year for the industry. So, at $11,000 a year, a farm worker gets approx. 10-1/2% of the output dollar -- ON PAPER. However, since the work is seasonal, that $11,000 is spread out -- for migrants, anyway, over 9 months, starting in February in southern California, and working their way up to Mattawa, WA by November. I have seen farm workers get $100 weekly paychecks for some work, so I am giving many growers the benefit of the doubt with my $11,000 figure. Many growers are in the same boat as their workers -- suffering at the hands of Monsanto, ADM, etc. in agribusiness. I have no prejudice there.

Also, utility rates and rents have skyrocketed as utility companies pay for their mergers by getting state agencies to raise rates. That leaves less money for food, clothes,etc.

We have a program we do year-round that helps families prognosticate need, and we see the actual amounts they earn and what the spend and it's not good. When you base it on federal guidelines, none of the families are able to spend what they should on housing -- which the feds say 25% of your income. Our people are spending 65% and more.

Besides, as good as it may seem for some workers, it is worse for many others. As I put forth, under fascism, some workers get the "good life" while others get screwed.

So, I think we know plenty about disaster and suffering. According to a 2011 study, 10 times the number of people die from heat related disasters as they do from ALL other natural disasters combined. This is a result, usually, of a lack of access to cooling centers/ utilities being shut off, etc. and of course global warming.

How would international economic relations work? Could communist countries compete with cold-hearted capitalists? While the Soviet Union was a mess in the first place, it did not compete.

The USSR's problem, IMHO, was that it TRIED to compete and could not compete with the US and its system -- because the US could squeeze its own populace and the populations of other nations for cheap labor, etc., while the USSR was not.

If the USSR was smart, they would have put ads in the NYT saying "All of our people have jobs and health care? Are YOU better off now than you were four years ago?" The Chinese are doing that, Cuba does it, to an extent -- and Venezueal does similar things. The Media is an important tool. That's why Communists have to build their own.

And that's the wd from the Marixist-Leninist of the panel.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

The standard of living for the bottom 99% is not rising, except in China. In the United States, the poverty rates and the number of people the government says is poor, has been steadily increasing since 2000, when the official rate had been 11.3%

"Quality of Life" is probably a better term.

Americans at every level are FAR wealthier than they were one-hundred years ago.

People in America, even those who struggle to make ends meet, do not starve.

My point is, being poor today is much less of a trial than it has been historically (In the first world).

So, I think we know plenty about disaster and suffering. According to a 2011 study, 10 times the number of people die from heat related disasters as they do from ALL other natural disasters combined. This is a result, usually, of a lack of access to cooling centers/ utilities being shut off, etc. and of course global warming.

Firstly, does this account for mankind's increasing ability to combat other natural disasters?

Second, while deaths caused by heat are terrible, I do not think they can necessarily be classified as a disaster in the same way hurricanes, earthquakes, and war can.

If the USSR was smart, they would have put ads in the NYT saying "All of our people have jobs and health care? Are YOU better off now than you were four years ago?"

Even if the Soviet people were better off (which they weren't, the average American was far richer, but I would say blame the government and not necessarily communism), I doubt the Soviets could have proven it to the Americans.

In any case, what you are implying is that communist countries would likely have to convert capitalist countries in order for something of a global economy to take shape?

On the Soviet Union...Why do you think it failed? I believe it was doomed to fail from the start because it was trapped in the corner of an ever-shrinking world fighting a "hemispherical" power of entirely global reach. It probably didn't help there were trying to marry the idea of communism with empire either.

 

[Traitorfish]

With living standards rising everywhere, especially among "commoners", what do you think the probability of the "re-arrival" of communism is? What we saw happen in Russian Empire was brought on by disaster and suffering, something the first world knows little about today.

So you've really not been paying all that much attention for the last five years or so, huh?

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

So you've really not been paying all that much attention for the last five years or so, huh?

Five years is a pretty short time in human history.

 

[Traitorfish]

That's true. But what of it?

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

You are saying that a short time trend that was the result of a financial crisis that is nothing more than a blip in the story of mankind is evidence that the quality of the average man's life is decreasing rather than increasing as it has throughout human history?


After a few minutes of pondering, I think a word on Europe is needed.

I understand they are suffering now and that it will likely get worse over the next few years. I believe they will recover though and I trust that non-radical governments will be what prevails once the crisis is over. In any case, I believe this discussion to be very Amero-centric seeing as America is the largest economy in the world and one of the countries not known for its fondness of communism.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

"Quality of Life" is probably a better term.

Americans at every level are FAR wealthier than they were one-hundred years ago.

Statistics and my 21 years of experience working with the poor be damned, then. Exactly where and how do you conclude that the "quality of life" has gotten better. Forget the farm workers, look at the shrinking middle class. Student loan debt -- unheard of 100 years ago -- is now past $1 trillion a year. Each household has an average credit card debt of $23,000 a year. Is this the result of rampant consumerism? Doubtful. Medical bills are skyrocketing and the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States is inability to pay medical bills.

People in America, even those who struggle to make ends meet, do not starve.

My point is, being poor today is much less of a trial than it has been historically (In the first world).

I dare you to spend a day with one of our members at the department of social services. I dare you to say that to the mother of four whose gas was shut off in May, and when October rolls around has NO WAY to heat her house -- and the state and federal agencies who regulate the utility companies give uncontested rate increases on the one hand -- in spite of an 11% decrease in the cost of producing natural gas -- tell our people that they have no power to enforce their own regulations. They are not starving to death (those about 120 people a year do in the US) they are freezing to death, dying of exposure, dying on untreated medical conditions because of lack of access to health care. This is in the United States.

(in 1995 in one summer, 735 Chicago residents died during the heat wave.)

IN the world, 30,000 children under the age of five die every day.

Firstly, does this account for mankind's increasing ability to combat other natural disasters?

Well no one in Cuba dies from heat exposure and very few die from other natural disasters. But are you referring to the US government's stellar performance after Hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Sandy? People are still homeless after Katrina and people were still without electricity 7 months after Sandy -- and 30,000 are still displaced.

So, yeah, accounting for this, I think it does.

But are you saying that "mankind" can't deal with the heat? Global Warming? See the excellent Yann Arthus Bertrand films Home(2009) and A Thirsty World (2012) We sure as heck CAN deal with heat-related disasters. We know Bertrand and he is a marvelous filmmaker. These films are chock full of data about the world and what's happening to it.

Second, while deaths caused by heat are terrible, I do not think they can necessarily be classified as a disaster in the same way hurricanes, earthquakes, and war can.

Yes they can. Heat related deaths are mostly poor people with no access to shelter.

Even if the Soviet people were better off (which they weren't, the average American was far richer, but I would say blame the government and not necessarily communism), I doubt the Soviets could have proven it to the Americans.

You can't accurately compare who was "richer" from one country to the next as it is relative. In the US the average person pays 50% or more of the income for housing (after taxes, which amount -- unless you are Mitt Romney-- to about 40% of your income.) but housing in the USSR was guaranteed, as was education through to university. Health care was provided for all and they were a generally more enlightened population. My dentist is a Soviet-trained professional who does marvelous work on my mouth. She was also an Afghan War veteran.

As far as proving it to Americans, that was NOT my point. You first have to convince people that Capitalism has to go. That is not hard where I am and where I organize. My point with the USSR is that rather than trying to compete at the US' game, they could have spent a fraction of that money advertising and then used the rest to send MDs and teachers around the world like Cuba does.

In any case, what you are implying is that communist countries would likely have to convert capitalist countries in order for something of a global economy to take shape?

Not at all. It is not for one country to convert another -- each nation forges its own path to socialism and communism. Existing Socialist nations have to live with reh capitalist ones, but world conditions really do favor socialism

On the Soviet Union...Why do you think it failed? I believe it was doomed to fail from the start because it was trapped in the corner of an ever-shrinking world fighting a "hemispherical" power of entirely global reach. It probably didn't help there were trying to marry the idea of communism with empire either.

No. The USSR defeated itself. Fidel Castro once said in his famous "Battle of Ideas" speech that "Socialism cannot be taken from a people, they must give it away." He added that the Cubans were not giving away socialism.

See my earlier Ask a Red IV posts -- where I answer a similar question from a current Russian citizen.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

Statistics and my 21 years of experience working with the poor be damned, then. Exactly where and how do you conclude that the "quality of life" has gotten better. Forget the farm workers, look at the shrinking middle class. Student loan debt -- unheard of 100 years ago -- is now past $1 trillion a year. Each household has an average credit card debt of $23,000 a year. Is this the result of rampant consumerism? Doubtful. Medical bills are skyrocketing and the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States is inability to pay medical bills.

So debt is a worse fate than death or being uneducated to you...?

Are you telling me that people enjoy fewer luxuries today and face greater trials than they did one hundred years ago and previously?

I dare you to spend a day with one of our members at the department of social services. I dare you to say that to the mother of four whose gas was shut off in May, and when October rolls around has NO WAY to heat her house -- and the state and federal agencies who regulate the utility companies give uncontested rate increases on the one hand -- in spite of an 11% decrease in the cost of producing natural gas -- tell our people that they have no power to enforce their own regulations. They are not starving to death (those about 120 people a year do in the US) they are freezing to death, dying of exposure, dying on untreated medical conditions because of lack of access to health care. This is in the United States.

I've spent plenty of days with those less fortunate. The minority that face such struggles is so small (and ever-shrinking generally) that it is useless to talk about them. The reason radical ideas took hold in Russia at the turn of the century was because the Russian Empire had extremely terrible living conditions.

Just because natural gas costs less to produce does not mean that the price of natural gas is lowering. Demand for natural gas likely increased and drove the price up.

You can't accurately compare who was "richer" from one country to the next as it is relative.

You can, somewhat fuzzily, but you can.

The population of the Soviet Union was larger than that of the US. The value of all goods and services produced in a year in the US was much higher than in the Soviet Union. This includes government spending; so all those soviet social programs are counted for in the wealth of the nation. This means the average American was richer. The poorest Americans may have been poorer (and you know, probably were), but poor Americans were (and are) a minority.

As far as proving it to Americans, that was NOT my point. You first have to convince people that Capitalism has to go. That is not hard where I am and where I organize. My point with the USSR is that rather than trying to compete at the US' game, they could have spent a fraction of that money advertising and then used the rest to send MDs and teachers around the world like Cuba does.

What funds are you speaking of that the USSR was using to compete with the US? Military...?

Not at all. It is not for one country to convert another -- each nation forges its own path to socialism and communism. Existing Socialist nations have to live with reh capitalist ones, but world conditions really do favor socialism

I'm not sure what your definition of "favor" is but for most definitions that is an extremely bold claim.
As long as the majority of the inhabitants of a country are fed, have work, and are able to live a life that is somewhat meaningful, massive social change is extremely unlikely historically.

See my earlier Ask a Red IV posts -- where I answer a similar question from a current Russian citizen.

Searching now.

 

[Traitorfish]

You are saying that a short time trend that was the result of a financial crisis that is nothing more than a blip in the story of mankind is evidence that the quality of the average man's life is decreasing rather than increasing as it has throughout human history?

You claimed that suffering and disaster are alien to the contemporary Western experience. I contended that, on the contrary, they are all around us. What does it matter that people a hundred, two hundred, a thousand years ago may have suffered even worse than we do? People rebel, or don't, for their own reasons, produced in their own times and by their own experiences, not because they've passed some transhistorical threshold.

I think what you tell us here is not that people won't rebel, or that they can't rebel, but that they should not rebel, that they lack that entitlement. But I want to more of that stuff- that's looking at it upside down!

 

[ArianeRigor]

uh oh... is this about communism? Um...if so, i will only say that you people in the West that "glamorize" communism dont know what youre talking about because you have childish visions about what it really means. You dont know the murder, and death that is causes around the world because youre insulated from it. You hide in the safety that freedom provides to you, and throw stones at the freedom that keeps you safe, and wealthy. You never see your brothers and sisters hungry and afraid because of the misery that it causes. Youre all childish and need to grow up. I know the slums, sickness, violence, and death it brings, and for the sad people who must live under it, our only hope is to escape it.

uh oh

and also I see pretend "intellectuals" trying to impress each other here on how well they can spew college back-room egg-head talk. Try posting any of it freely in any other but a free society. And see how many hours pass before your family is gone in the night, or you get visited in your squatter place one night by men with things over there mouth and nose, i dont know what is called "bandanna" your daughters taken and abused and dropped back home in the night as a warning. foolish talk. Freedom always and forever for the soul to breath free, bring me your huddled masses yearning to breath free.

I love america
never change.

 

[Traitorfish]

Are we supposed to interpret that as a question?

 

[caketastydelish]

Do you find the 'communism' and 'socalism' branches of the order social policy tree in Civilization V to be degrading, accurate, both, or neither?

It seems this question has been still left unanswered. Now I will always choose fascism and kill any other players that have gone with order.

 

[ArianeRigor]

you want a question?

How many brothers and fathers lay in mass graves from 100 years of that garbage?

50 million?

75 million?

100 million?

answer 100 million.

including many from papa's family in cambodia. You know what makes me laugh, all those who use big words and quote what they read last night in a college mans writings who obviously is far away from anything communist, is.... under communism anyone who can put two sentences together is the first body thrown in the mass grave. So ill give some advice then im done about it...

if you ever get a communist state that you want, be sure not to say anything smart, because professors, and the educated are the first to be shot.

okay im done about it. Ill save my time for real men.

REAL men love liberty.

"Communism is the ideology of the coward." ( my man )

Only a coward desire to use force to take from another man who is better, and give to self to make up for what you can not achieve on your own.

Moderator Action: This is The Chamber. Posts like this don't meet the standards required. Please ask a question and refrain from polemics.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

So what is the cause of rebellion then? Historically it has been widespread suffering.

While certainly there is suffering in the modern era, it is much more limited than it has been in the past. It is rare and becoming rarer.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So what is the cause of rebellion then? Historically it has been widespread suffering.

While certainly there is suffering in the modern era, it is much more limited than it has been in the past. It is rare and becoming rarer.

Only to your privileged eyes.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

Only to your privileged eyes.

Do you honestly think people suffer as much today as they have historically?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

you want a question?
How many brothers and fathers lay in mass graves from 100 years of that garbage?
50 million?
75 million?
100 million?
answer 100 million.

including many from papa's family in cambodia. You know what makes me laugh, all those who use big words and quote what they read last night in a college mans writings who obviously is far away from anything communist, is.... under communism anyone who can put two sentences together is the first body thrown in the mass grave. So ill give some advice then im done about it...

if you ever get a communist state that you want, be sure not to say anything smart, because professors, and the educated are the first to be shot.

okay im done about it. Ill save my time for real men.

REAL men love liberty.

"Communism is the ideology of the coward." ( my man )

Only a coward desire to use force to take from another man who is better, and give to self to make up for what you can not achieve on your own.

You seem to be dealing with declarative statements about what you perceive as "communism," but far more people (over a half billion by even the bourgeoisie's don't take my word for it, read Niall Ferguson's Empire) have perished at the hands of European colonialism and imperialism before Marx wrote the first lines of the Manifesto -- so let's not point fingers.

Cambodia under Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge was NOT communism or socialism -- that is why it took a truly socialist country, Viet nam, to intervene and stop the killing.

Ask ANY Cuban living in or still faithful to Cuba about "communism," and they will tell you how much better it is than they have ever known -- especially when they travel to the US.

So, since we cannot impart to you the data and merits of socialism and communism, please post in another thread -- or start your own. This is a Q and A thread, not a debating thread.

Incidentally, I love America. That is why I devote my 24 hours a day to bettering its poorest citizens, and it also happens to be why I am a Red.