[BTS] What to do with a great prophet?

[Kallikrates]

So you have built the oracle. Certainly sometimes a sensible choice. But now your genepool is contaminated and you might pop a great prophet instead of the coveted scientist or engineer.

What are the best options? (instead of power word reload and hope for a better outcome) I am playing BTS immortal without enough dedication for optimal or power play but I am often bugged by such choices that rarely seem to be dealt with in typical strategy articles.

- golden age is often not so great in the BCs (no caste, philosophy or state religion yet, or at least not all three)
- religious building might be helpful in some games, but usually later on, again, a prophet as 1st or 2nd GPerson will be so early that even if one has a religion it might not have spread all that much.
- join city: This seems often the best choice, especially if one has the pyramids but even if not the 5 gold regardless of slider seem very nice early in the game
- bulb something: The help/peek in BUG in the science screen does seem to be incorrect here or I am too dense to read it properly. When I recently got a priest (2nd GP around 400-500 BC) it showed me monotheism followed by CoL. I did not have any religion yet and thought the option for caste would be nice, so I traded math for monotheism but then the bulb option suddenly was Theology a tech I almost always trade for around 500-1000 before starting to build cuirassiers... While Theocracy might also be nice for a war in the late BCs/early ADs (elepults or similar) it does not help much before the religion has spread. And one has rarely time to build prophets instead of units if one wants to go for a war at that stage.
And I am usually wary to adopt any religion early because of diplomacy. So what gives? Is early theology worse sacrificing 100s of turns of the joined extra priest bonus or the one time bonus of an early Golden Age

 

[Izuul]

I almost always use them for my first golden age.

As for the other bit, this is the bulb order for great prophets (up to CoL):

Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism
Masonry (Warlords patch & BTS)
Code of Laws

Mono is a pre-req for Theology so, at the time, you could not tech Theo and therefore it wasn't showing as an option. Trading for Mono unlocked Theo and it's higher on the prophet bulb tree.

There are two sets of bulb techs shown in BUG. One of them only shows techs that can be bulbed right now, and the other is the master list. The list that only shows what you can currently bulb can be very misleading because of this situation. Any new tech that you get can change that order. Don't use it.

 

[Kallikrates]

Thanks, I had figured something like that with those lists but they can be extremely misleading. So CoL bulb works only with strange avoidance?

I was wary about a golden age because in this situation I would only profit from the "bare" GA boni without having any civic/religion to change into for further leverage because CoL and Phil were not even discovered (by no civ on the map). And then a more convenient GA 500 years later when those boni were available would need two Great persons...

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

I'd usually Oracle CoL, so I'd just build the shrine (which helps spread the religion, I think). If I've Oracled something else, settle him. 2 and 5 is handy early on. If I'm IND and lacking a religion, I might bulb Theo and build the AP, but that's pretty niche stuff. I've never really gone for the early GA - seems like a bit of a waste to me...

 

[lymond]

Well, I don't think Iz meant you would need to use it immediately for a GA..just run the GA when you are setup for it.

Only reason I would use it for a shrine is if it would pay off immediately..like I'd already captured a holy city and had a lot of religion spread in my empire.

But the Golden Ages can pay off big time if used correctly.

 

[sampsa]

I think that in normal circumstances a settled GP loses so clearly vs an academy that I usually try to avoid spawning a prophet as my first great person. If that happens though, I save him for a timely golden age as already suggested ITT (timely= ability to switch to religion+paci (and bureau)). I also think the Oracle is kinda over-rated under normal circumstances, say imm/normal/non-HOF start.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

Hmmm. You're wasting a lot of (and maybe ) in the vital early game leaving a first GP Prophet sitting around doing nothing until you're set up for a Golden Age.

 

[sampsa]

It's hard to come up with a case where the period between popping the first from a wonder (=50 turns after completion) and getting your hands on CS/philo is terribly long. Maybe with a philosophical leader, when I guess it's possible that settling sometimes is the most lucrative option.

I understand what you mean by "Wasting a lot of and " but I'm afraid it's a bit off target. In the same way you are wasting a lot of -points by not running a golden age or wasting a lot of by not bulbing a tech. It would be much more useful to compare the output of each option in a set time frame instead.

 

[Izuul]

While not ideal (GS is preferred), an early prophet allows you to bypass (or lose) Music and still get an early golden age to switch into caste + pacifism as sampsa pointed out. If you plan accordingly, you can generate a ton of GPP during a golden age - enough to generate several great people. It's very powerful and a key part of getting a good Lib date.

 

[Fippy]

Not long ago (the Boudi gotm) i used my Oracle prophet for a captured holy city, that seemed great cos 15+ cities already had Juda.

But after some time i realized..i could have built MoM and get 12 turns of Golden Age instead, lol i did not have a single GA that game in the end.
It's when i realized, even decent shrines are really not that good on normal map war games.
Great Merchant would have probably given more gold than the shrine all game (and just needs some turns of Caste).

Special case for sure, was just an all out war game but i think overall the gold created is not good enuf by either settling or captured shrine. Cos of those merchants.

In Isolation i like settling the first one often thou, different case here with no AIs for gold, and no cities to send great merchants to

 

[Kallikrates]

sure, to get a prophet might be a reason to avoid the oracle but this is not the point here where it is given that one gets an early prophet
Keeping him a long time for a GA might make sense but I was not sure about it, otherwise I would not have asked. It obviously depends on whether one is close (and how close) to researching or trading for CoL and Phil and has a religion spread to the larger cities or not.

 

[Izuul]

It's not really *that* long. 1800 BC (T55) is an early Oracle date with normal settings. Lets say you get your library built and start working 2 scientists 10 turns later on T65. You will get your great person T75 (1000 BC) and it will be 60/40 GS/prophet. If you don't get your library and scientists up that fast - say you need a settler out ASAP because the Oracle has delayed your expansion (pretty typical) then you might not get your library up until much later and then you are looking at a later great person with an even higher chance of a prophet. Anyway, T75 is on the earlier side for that prophet and it could be as late as T100+ if you aren't able to prioritize the library and scientists (or your Oracle might be much later than T55).

If I'm playing a Lib game i usually trigger my golden age somewhere in the early ADs. 1 AD Civil Service isn't hard to achieve on a decent commerce map (you can certainly get it much earlier) and at that point you are probably close to teching Paper and such and you need to start getting those GS out soon to bulb Edu. That's where the golden age comes into play. If your cities are large enough and you have the prophet already available, starting the golden age to switch into Bureau (along with Caste and Paci) and avoid anarchy is a solid option. If your cities aren't large enough and just aren't ready for Caste + Pacifism (or you don't have Philo yet) you just have to eat the 1T of anarchy to switch into Bureau and start the golden age a little bit later. Either way, that first golden age can commonly fall anywhere from 100 BC to like 300 AD. That's T111-127 range. Worst case your holding onto your prophet for ~50T, but more often than not it's going to be less than that, and the value of a golden age is huge. Not just in terms of the extra commerce and hammers, but also the massive amounts of GPP you can generate during one. The golden age is just too important to pass up if pursuing Lib.

If you don't save that prophet for a golden age then you really need to get another great person elsewhere to start one. That means either winning the race to Music for the free artist or generating another great person to trigger the golden age. Music is certainly preferable here, but a) it's not always feasible to win Music, and b) it's not always optimal to take that path. Music is best when you have marble and are already inclined to take the Aesthetics > Lit path early. Otherwise you may be able to just trade for it.

If you have to generate your own great person (likely a GS) to start the golden age you are forgoing something like 1700 beakers and also making all of your subsequent great people more expensive. The settled prophet isn't worth that.

 

[Imploding]

Just work around it..?

Make sure the The first GS is 100 % sure.

This can easily be done by build library in another city than the oracle city. And emphasis that the GS is out with a 100 % success rate before the Great Prophet from the oracle.. I think the GP from the Oracle need about 50 turns to be out? So in my experience there has not really been that big an issue.

In the instances where there It's absolutely impossible to get the oracle and use another city for GS. I usually have other problems.. so the oracle does not seem like a viable strategy anyway

 

[Izuul]

That's definitely the better method, but most of the posts in this thread are operating under the assumption of getting a prophet.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

It's hard to come up with a case where the period between popping the first from a wonder (=50 turns after completion) and getting your hands on CS/philo is terribly long. Maybe with a philosophical leader, when I guess it's possible that settling sometimes is the most lucrative option.

I understand what you mean by "Wasting a lot of and " but I'm afraid it's a bit off target. In the same way you are wasting a lot of -points by not running a golden age or wasting a lot of by not bulbing a tech. It would be much more useful to compare the output of each option in a set time frame instead.

I understand the concept of opportunity cost.

and generated in the formative stages of your empire can be game changing. A settled Great Prophet helps build and fund a BC army. Conquer enough cities early on and the map is yours; there's no need to fanny around generating Great People and plod through another Lib race snooze-fest.

It's all map dependant, of course. Saving an early Prophet for a GA will often be the best play, but I wouldn't dismiss settling a Prophet out of hand.

 

[lindsay40k]

Try to have your plan laid out when you get your worker techs and barb defence sorted.

Is there a neighbour who'll spread a religion but can't be trusted to build a shrine? (Looking at you, Mansa.) Holding onto a GPro and launching a crusade can reap big payoffs. You should be able to get a GG for a super healer and a second to wait until you break the false prophet and see if they've settled one in a decent HE city. If they have, you're one civic away from combat III mounted units.

Have all the early religions been founded on another continent? Early Kong Miao can be an economic and diplo boon. Can be worth setting things up so it's founded in a food heavy site. HS with NE and WS that keeps settling GPros and GMs can be awesome, and it's not hard to get a second city to get you your GS.

Isabella nearby? She's going to build the Mahabodhi. If you're going to Oracle, CoL can be a diplo liability and diminish the yields of the HS you'll be capturing. I tend to get MC, build a decent economy and army, have an expo city making damn sure it pops a GS before Oracle trolls me, and wait for her to paint a target on herself.

Do you have Marble? A settled GPro could really help fund research of Literature and construction of GLib, during which you'll maintain your science advantage and get Music GA. You'll have to have terrible luck to fail to pop a GS then.

Also situational stuff like Genghis or Hannibal bulbing HBR, Sitting Bull with three gem start bulbing Feudalism, Qin or SB bulbing Metal Casting and using pre-chopped forests to rush a Forge and then GE bulb Machinery, etc

 

[Kallikrates]

@Izuul: Your plan does make sense and I often play somewhat similarly, not necessarily with the oracle. If I build the oracle (and I learned to build it far less frequently than I used to on lower levels) I almost always bulb CoL and then Phil and CS are reasonably close for late BCs/early ADs GA/civic switch even on not so great maps. The GA from Music also works surpringly often, I find. And the rough estimate of 100 BC - 300 AD for that switch also fits well with my experience.

In the actual case I rolled Bismarck on a food poor and trade poor map and after several unsatisfying starts (because I rarely play him) I decided that to make most of his traits I should oracle MC, build forges and attack with Elepults (Something I have hardly ever done and wanted to try. Usually I am not single-minded enough for such strategies and either try an early rush if the conditions are great or (most frequently) go the longer way to cuirassiers or even cannons). This delayed Writing because with poor research speed I had to get the necessary techs for MC first. Then I got against the odds an Engineer as the first GP. Despite lack of food I thought that it was too good an opportunity to miss and used him to build the pyramids. (In my earlier tries I had build/chopped the pyramids very early but they were not really of much use because lack of food and caste far away). Then the second GP against the odds became a priest. (I am probably going to reload and hope for a Scientist) but this was the occasion for asking that question.
And I did not want to tie the question too closely to the somewhat unusual situation in that game.

 

[Izuul]

In that kind of situation i would just probably just take an early golden age for the production and commerce boost.