The Force should go back to sleep permanently

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Also, everything I have read seems to indicate that the Republic is at least somewhat aware of the threat the New Order poses, but doesn't really want to believe it. It's like they know the New Order is a serious threat but they just want to convince themselves they aren't and hope they go away or the problem somehow resolves itself. From what I've read, this attitude mostly stems from the Republic not investing very heavily in it's military and the fact that there is very little political will in the Republic to fight a full-scale war while they are really still trying to rebuild from the Galactic Civil War.

Bingo! This goes back to the Bloodline novel, and its key context (missing) from the film. The Republic is really tired of war. Leia and The Resistance basically want to meet the First Order head on and stop it, but nobody in the Republic wants to commit the troops and go through the human toll full on war requires given what they just came out of, so they sort of turn a blind eye and hope it goes away while also allowing Leia and her faction's Resistance to exist without explicitly condemning it or supporting it.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Notice how I didn't say I had a problem with calling it Star Wars, I had a problem with insisting that other people call it Star Wars. In the article there is no ambiguity because it is clear from the contrext that Star Wars isn't referring to thewhole franchise.

Well luckily I'm not insisting on it. I'm not in any position to insist on it as I couldn't possibly enforce it anyway. I just think that if you don't you should be taken out and shot

 

[Commodore]

Bingo! This goes back to the Bloodline novel, and its key context (missing) from the film. The Republic is really tired of war. Leia and The Resistance basically want to meet the First Order head on and stop it, but nobody in the Republic wants to commit the troops and go through the human toll full on war requires given what they just came out of, so they sort of turn a blind eye and hope it goes away while also allowing Leia and her faction's Resistance to exist without explicitly condemning it or supporting it.

Yep. And this attitude is very understandable too since if you think about it, the Old Republic went through the Clone Wars which lasted for 3 years and ended with the formation of the Empire. After that there were numerous little "brushfire" conflicts as the Empire fought to exert its authority and will in the Outer Rim. Those brushfire conflicts eventually culminated in the Galactic Civil War which lasted for several years as well. That meant the galaxy knew nothing but an almost constant state of war for over two decades. So it makes sense that the politicians and populations of the Republic would balk at the prospect of plunging the galaxy into war yet again, especially a war for the Outer Rim, which many in the rest of the galaxy view as worthless and lawless territory that cannot be controlled and isn't worth fighting for.

BTW, I am ashamed that I referred to the First Order as the New Order in my earlier post.

 

[Kozmos]

Galactic war is bad, but when you have planet-killing weapons and proven willingness to use them, I'm not sure how they figured they could brush FO away.

 

[Commodore]

Galactic war is bad, but when you have planet-killing weapons and proven willingness to use them, I'm not sure how they figured they could brush FO away.

Well, the Republic wasn't aware the First Order had any planet-killing weapons, let alone an entire star system-killing weapon. Of course, now that they have used it and destroyed the Republic's political capital and a sizable portion of their already meager military forces, the Republic can't really do anything about the First Order now. I'm sure whatever government they have left would issue some half-hearted declaration of war against the First Order, but the Resistance is still on its own since it's not like the Republic will be in any shape to put together anything resembling a serious war effort.

 

[Kozmos]

But they knew the Empire possessed planet wrecking weapons that they built twice. It's like going into Iraq and leaving after you have seen WMD used. If anything any strategic planner worth his credits in bacta would be moving to secure any and all industrial resources needed to build anything of that scale.

Despite being a space opera with wizards, I feel like SW has potential for some rather deep and interesting stories with a lot of gray areas.

 

[Commodore]

But they knew the Empire possessed planet wrecking weapons that they built twice. It's like going into Iraq and leaving after you have seen WMD used. If anything any strategic planner worth his credits in bacta would be moving to secure any and all industrial resources needed to build anything of that scale.

Despite being a space opera with wizards, I feel like SW has potential for some rather deep and interesting stories with a lot of gray areas.

I'm sure the Republic thought about it, but they simply didn't have the military resources to do it. Remember, the Republic is still a fledgling state at the time of TFA and one that hasn't invested a lot in building up their military to boot. Basically, the First Order is taking advantage of the fact that the Republic is still very unstable, very weak militarily, and barely standing on very shaky foundations. The Republic we see in TFA is nowhere near as influential, far-reaching, or powerful as the Old Republic was before the rise of the Empire.

EDIT: The First Order was also bound by the Galactic Concordance since they were a successor state of the Galactic Empire. That treaty brought an end to the Galactic Civil War and put heavy restrictions on the types of weapons any successor states could build or maintain in their arsenals. Now, for a while, it seemed like the First Order was abiding by the Galactic Concordance so the Republic didn't think they had too much to worry about. However, the First Order was doing a really good job of covering up their military build-up and by the time the Republic became aware that the First Order wasn't abiding by the Galactic Concordance, it was too late for them to send forces in to enforce the terms of the treaty. The First Order had simply become powerful enough to wipe their butts with the Galactic Concordance and throw it back in the Republic's face. It's kinda similar to how Hitler was able to rearm Germany in the lead up to WWII despite treaties expressly forbidding such rearmament.

 

[Kozmos]

If the Republic was so weak, how come there was a peace treaty? Unless they were both greatly weakened and both decided to tap out and one went back to eating donuts and the other building superweapons. Something doesn't quite mesh there. Chains of suspicion would be the second rule of galactic sociology I think. But a show about what you said above is definitively something I'd enjoy watching a lot more. Something something unfeasibility of democratic systems in face of galactic realities.

 

[Synobun]

If the Republic was so weak, how come there was a peace treaty? Unless they were both greatly weakened and both decided to tap out and one went back to eating donuts and the other building superweapons. Something doesn't quite mesh there. Chains of suspicion would be the second rule of galactic sociology I think. But a show about what you said above is definitively something I'd enjoy watching a lot more. Something something unfeasibility of democratic systems in face of galactic realities.

It's less weakness and more unwillingness. Nobody wants to be the one who causes the other shoe to drop, causing significant political gridlock. Independent systems and coalitions are hogtied because of this; nobody wants to be the one to act, so nobody does. The Outer Rim, meanwhile, doesn't have to worry about galactic governance or gridlock of any kind.

 

[Commodore]

If the Republic was so weak, how come there was a peace treaty? Unless they were both greatly weakened and both decided to tap out and one went back to eating donuts and the other building superweapons. Something doesn't quite mesh there. Chains of suspicion would be the second rule of galactic sociology I think. But a show about what you said above is definitively something I'd enjoy watching a lot more. Something something unfeasibility of democratic systems in face of galactic realities.

It's not that they went back to eating donuts, it's that they were dealing with their own internal issues. As far as I understand it, there were a lot of systems and political entities that fought alongside the Rebellion, but after the war weren't really keen on the idea of a new galaxy-wide republic. Too many bad memories about how the Old Republic was a corrupt, bureaucratic mess that was turned into the most tyrannical regime in millennia. A lot of systems favored outright independence rather than creating a new galactic government and a good number of those systems refused to join the Republic if I remember right. That's what I'm talking about when I say they weren't as strong or as influential as the Old Republic.

And the peace treaty came because the Rebels weren't weak at the time. After the Battle of Jakku, the Empire's military was exhausted and their high command was in disarray. The Rebels on the other hand, had formed into a massive coalition that was pushing the Empire back on every front. After the war though, that coalition kinda broke up without the boogieman of the Galactic Empire to unite them. As I said above, a significant number of factions that were with the Rebels, chose not to join the Republic after the war, and it stands to reason that they took their military forces with them.

In short, a lot of the Republic's problems stem from the fact that there was extensive "buy-in" from many factions for the Rebel Alliance, but not nearly as much of that buy-in for the Republic that came after the war was won.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

It's not that they went back to eating donuts, it's that they were dealing with their own internal issues. As far as I understand it, there were a lot of systems and political entities that fought alongside the Rebellion, but after the war weren't really keen on the idea of a new galaxy-wide republic. Too many bad memories about how the Old Republic was a corrupt, bureaucratic mess that was turned into the most tyrannical regime in millennia. A lot of systems favored outright independence rather than creating a new galactic government and a good number of those systems refused to join the Republic if I remember right. That's what I'm talking about when I say they weren't as strong or as influential as the Old Republic.

And the peace treaty came because the Rebels weren't weak at the time. After the Battle of Jakku, the Empire's military was exhausted and their high command was in disarray. The Rebels on the other hand, had formed into a massive coalition that was pushing the Empire back on every front. After the war though, that coalition kinda broke up without the boogieman of the Galactic Empire to unite them. As I said above, a significant number of factions that were with the Rebels, chose not to join the Republic after the war, and it stands to reason that they took their military forces with them.

In short, a lot of the Republic's problems stem from the fact that there was extensive "buy-in" from many factions for the Rebel Alliance, but not nearly as much of that buy-in for the Republic that came after the war was won.

It's a shame none of this was mentioned in the film at all, thus allowing it to make some sort of sense. Or maybe it was. I've only seen it once, maybe I need to see it again, but I remember just being utterly confused about the political situation and decided to just not bother trying to work it out.

 

[Ajidica]

The Rebels on the other hand, had formed into a massive coalition that was pushing the Empire back on every front. After the war though, that coalition kinda broke up without the boogieman of the Galactic Empire to unite them.

Yet the threat of Space Nazis building a DOOM MACHINE that didn't need to bother with traveling to a different system to vaporize entire systems wasn't a boogieman?

Even if there wasn't buy-in on a preemptive strike on the DOOM MACHINE, why was there no galactic effort to wipe out the DOOM MACHINE after it fired? Surely at that point they would realize things are serious and nuke a bunch of Space Nazis from orbit.
To continue the North Korea analogy, if North Korea set off a nuke in Seoul, you can bet that every country on the planet would be contributing in some way to the physical overthrow of the North Korean government. Nuclear weapons is one of the few things the international community agrees you don't mess around with.

 

[Commodore]

It's a shame none of this was mentioned in the film at all, thus allowing it to make some sort of sense. Or maybe it was. I've only seen it once, maybe I need to see it again, but I remember just being utterly confused about the political situation and decided to just not bother trying to work it out.

Nah, it wasn't mentioned in the film, it was mentioned in a novel and a bunch of other promotional stuff that came out before the movie. Anyone who didn't read that stuff would pretty much have no idea what was going on in the movie as far as the political situation. Which is a shame, because I agree with you that it should have been in the movie. At least all the other Star Wars movies took the time to sort of explain the political situation, even if it meant there had to be some clunky and awkward exposition sequences to do it.

Yet the threat of Space Nazis building a DOOM MACHINE that didn't need to bother with traveling to a different system to vaporize entire systems wasn't a boogieman?

Exactly. Kinda like how in real life the rest of the world didn't really see the Nazis as being as big of a threat as they really turned out to be, which allowed them to rearm and start a world war. Also, the First Order didn't pop up over night. This movie takes place about 30 years after Return of the Jedi. In that 30 years, many of the Galactic Empire's successor states were being totally peaceful and abiding by the peace treaty. The First Order even seemed to be abiding by the peace treaty as well, which made everyone else in the galaxy believe the threat of the Galactic Empire was truly over. Finally, while the Republic eventually discovered the First Order's military build-up, they still had no idea about the Starkiller Base until it vaporized their capital and a sizable chunk of their fleet. Which brings me to my next point:

Even if there wasn't buy-in on a preemptive strike on the DOOM MACHINE, why was there no galactic effort to wipe out the DOOM MACHINE after it fired? Surely at that point they would realize things are serious and nuke a bunch of Space Nazis from orbit.

How is the Republic supposed to respond to the firing of the Starkiller Base when that firing wiped out the highest echelons of their government and military command? After such an attack, it is only logical to assume the Republic is in disarray and chaos, both politically and militarily. Right now they are in no shape to mount any kind of effective strike against the First Order. And no other independent faction will strike against the First Order because they simply are not strong enough to do so. Remember, the First Order didn't just have the Starkiller Base, they have a massive armada and a massive army.

However, the Starkiller Base was destroyed by the Resistance and we really didn't get the chance to see what the galaxy's response to the destruction of Hosnian Prime is going to be. With the Starkiller Base gone, that might inspire other factions to start mobilizing against the First Order, and we might see the Resistance getting some real help from remaining Republic forces and some other factions.

 

[Synobun]

It's a shame none of this was mentioned in the film at all, thus allowing it to make some sort of sense. Or maybe it was. I've only seen it once, maybe I need to see it again, but I remember just being utterly confused about the political situation and decided to just not bother trying to work it out.

Some/most of the political stuff was cut from the movie. Most assume this is because of the prequels that people are so eager to hate. The movie doesn't go much into it besides mentioning that the Republic isn't going to help the Resistance.

However, you know that Star Wars is a franchise with more than big screen movies. There are comics, shows, and books. It seems illogical to scratch your head when something isn't crystal-clearly described on the movie screen when you know that supplemental information is provided elsewhere. That's been the case for twenty years. It is quite literally impossible to convey an accurate image of galactic politics in a 2 hour window in a movie that's meant to be action-filled and less "9th grade history class documentary".

Yet the threat of Space Nazis building a DOOM MACHINE that didn't need to bother with traveling to a different system to vaporize entire systems wasn't a boogieman?

Even if there wasn't buy-in on a preemptive strike on the DOOM MACHINE, why was there no galactic effort to wipe out the DOOM MACHINE after it fired? Surely at that point they would realize things are serious and nuke a bunch of Space Nazis from orbit.
To continue the North Korea analogy, if North Korea set off a nuke in Seoul, you can bet that every country on the planet would be contributing in some way to the physical overthrow of the North Korean government. Nuclear weapons is one of the few things the international community agrees you don't mess around with.

How can they act against the threat if they don't know the threat exists? The New Republic did not know about Starkiller Base. What are they supposed to do? Have a Jedi Order in place that can have premonitions about this kind of stuff and warn the Senate?

We don't know what the galactic response is. The immediate response after the firing of Starkiller Base was focused on the Resistance and their subsequent infiltration and strike against the superweapon. At this point, nobody knows what the situation is. It's possible the Republic is reassembling its government and beginning to mount an offensive. It's also possible the Republic is completely crippled and pandemonium has broke out in the Inner Rim. We don't know, for now.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Watched the Force Awakens for a third time...and another thing popped out at me.

It's how the galaxy in TFA felt so much smaller. Space travel in TFA felt more like a short drive accross town. You can tell this movie was made for the smartphone age.

Remember when Han said this: "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it."

Space travel in original trilogy seemed similar to how air travel was on Earth was 80 years ago. Skillful navigation and careful calculations was matter of life and death and spacecraft were always getting stuck, breaking down, getting sabotaged. Darth Vader even killed one of his admirals for a slight navigation error that alerted the rebels..

All the "travel inconvience" and detours in the original trilogy dds up to make the galaxy feel much larger and realistic than whats actually in frame. TFA seems way more barren in comparrison.

I think JJ's "go to point A, go to point B" plot style works perfectly in smaller stories but I don't think it suits a high fantasy saga like Star Wars.

 

[Commodore]

Watched the Force Awakens for a third time...and another thing popped out at me.

It's how the galaxy in TFA felt so much smaller. Space travel in TFA felt more like a short drive accross town. You can tell this movie was made for the smartphone age.

Remember when Han said this: "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it."

Space travel in original trilogy seemed similar to how air travel was on Earth was 80 years ago. Skillful navigation and careful calculations was matter of life and death and spacecraft were always getting stuck, breaking down, getting sabotaged. It's established that skillful navigation and careful calculations was matter of life and death. Darth Vader even killed one of his admirals for a slight navigation error that alerted the rebels..

All the "travel inconvience" and detours in the original trilogy dds up to make the galaxy feel much larger and realistic than whats actually in frame. TFA seems way more barren in comparrison.

I think JJ's "go to point A, go to point B" plot style works perfectly in smaller stories but I don't think it suits a high fantasy saga like Star Wars.

Well, that can all be explained away by improving technology. It only makes sense that navigational systems would become more sophisticated over time (especially since space travel is so important). So perhaps by the time of TFA, space travel IS just like a short drive across town because navigational computers have become good enough to do all those calculations precisely and safely with minimal input from the crew.

 

[Lexicus]

...Do you know nothing about Star Wars lore? The hyperdrive has literally been around for something like twenty-five thousand years, so technological change on the scale you're talking about occurring within decades makes very little sense. Further, in the prequel trilogy the state of technology is already exactly what you describe- navigation computers do all the calculations with minimal input from the crew (the same is true in the original trilogy).

 

[Commodore]

...Do you know nothing about Star Wars lore? The hyperspace drive has literally been around for something like twenty-five thousand years, so technological change on the scale you're talking about occurring within decades makes very little sense. Further, in the prequel trilogy the state of technology is already exactly what you describe- navigation computers do all the calculations with minimal input from the crew (the same is true in the original trilogy).

You know, that's something that has always bothered me about Star Wars. The level of technological development the galaxy is at seems to have been static for thousands of years. It's like once hyperdrives, blasters, and lightsabers were developed, all the researchers in the galaxy just said "screw it!" and stopped making any significant advances in technology.

 

[Lexicus]

You know, that's something that has always bothered me about Star Wars. The level of technological development the galaxy is at seems to have been static for thousands of years. It's like once hyperdrives, blasters, and lightsabers were developed, all the researchers in the galaxy just said "screw it!" and stopped making any significant advances in technology.

Yeah, to an extent you're right. I also think Bugfatty's complaint is kind of ridiculous because the galaxy sure felt small to me in the OT. It's really only in the prequel trilogy that you get some small sense of just how large a galaxy is. Of course, the galaxy is in reality large enough that much of Star Wars - the politics, the plot, the space battle sequences, etc. makes absolutely no sense. One thing that really bothered me about TFA was how, when Starkiller base fired, the people on Hosnian Prime could see the other planets in their own system being destroyed, and the whole thing could even be seen from whatever planet Han, Finn and Rey were on at the time (completely forget the name of that one).

Side note: given that all Extended Universe canon was nullified when Disney bought the franchise it's probable that what I just said about hyperspace technology no longer applies to the Star Wars universe. Again, though, that's what headcanon is for.

 

[Commodore]

Also, given that all Extended Universe canon was nullified when Disney bought the franchise it's probable that what I just said no longer applies to the Star Wars universe.

I'm just mad that the original Clone Wars cartoon is no longer canon. You know, that series of animated shorts that came out right before Revenge of the Sith and was designed specifically to be a tie-in to that movie? Yeah, Disney says that's not canon anymore.

 

[Hygro]

Galaxy feels big in 4 and 6, but small in 5. Definitely feels small in 7.